azza

Has anyone ever looked at Dorian Yates doing machine pullovers? Machines are effective, use it correctly and pile on the weight with good form. Smith machine squats and shoulder press's are great in a smith machine, try doing rows in a smith machine. Use both effectively. Isolation stuff like rear delt etc can help bring up that delt when all your press's overuse the front delts.
AZZA

lkt004

"Your muscles only know work/resistance. They can't differentiate between how that resistance is created. For example, machine shoulder press, dumbbell shoulder press and barbell shoulder press all equal a load on the shoulder (and assistance) muscles when you ask those muscles to lift the load.

Yes you will be limited by the variations you can use with your training, but you should still be able to perform and adequate workout."

Have you ever done a standing miliatary press? You cannot seriously say there is an equal load on the shoulders whilst doing a SMP compared to sitting in a poofy machine pressing straight up from a seated position. You are using NO assistance muscles, the shoulders are just having to press up, instead of hold the bar steady and press up at the same time.

I could go on forever......

Shame

Yes, regularly.

Don't belive I said that? However I did say that they both equal a load, not they both have an equal load.

I agree (partially). Yes you are using assistance muscles, even stabilisation muscles - you just anre't working your stablisation muscles as hard. Regardless, they do both create a load on the shoulders and the shoulders cannot differentiate between a machine press and an SMP. They don't think to themselves "Hey, this guy has chosen to use the smith machine for presses theyfore I refuse to work as hard" - they just simply recruit the fibres that are needed to get the job done.

Fadi

What's an

Quote:

equal load on the shoulders?

Then you say:

Quote:

You are using NO assistance muscles, the shoulders are just having to press up, instead of hold the bar steady and press up at the same time.

With your second remark, you've shifted the argument into a different territory. So which is it now; the load on the shoulders or the involvement of stabilisers/assistance muscles? I can go on but I'm satisfied that you've actually answered your own question with the last part of your remark here:

Quote:

the shoulders are just having to press up

So there, the shoulders did do something; they (the shoulders alone) pressed the weight up without the assistance muscles. I'm not saying which exercise is better or more effective here; just simply answering your put down remark:

Quote:

sitting in a poofy machine pressing...

.

Fadi.

__________________
Squat 200kg, FSquat 195kg, C&J 160kg, PC 140kg, MP 90kg.

trofius

I think control, is the only drawback using machines, and the lack of stabilisation required for the exercises. I find when using machines no matter how unco, or even if you are pushing or pulling in the right direction, the nature of the beast will guide you though the proper range of motion.

So yes they target the desired muscles goup, but they teach you body very little in the way of control.

Machines are useful when you first start out, or as a last / finishing exersice when you are shagged, and want to reduce the risk of injury whilst still performing a range of motion.

They are also good for isolation exercises, if thats what you want to do.

__________________
Mick..yes another one there are hundreds here..!
Currently 74kg, 173cm ~15%bf,
1 RM: B125, BS150, FS110 D180, MP75, PP80, PC90
6 RM: B100, BS110, FS80, D160, MP60, PP60, PC70

http://ausbb.com/member-training-dia...ys-2010-a.html

AndyMitchell

Any proggressive resistance will increase mass which makes strength gain possible.
But at the end of the day a poor tradesman will always blame his tools.

Fadi

You've summed up my first reply perfectly with your above observation Silverback. Thanks mate.


Fadi.

__________________
Squat 200kg, FSquat 195kg, C&J 160kg, PC 140kg, MP 90kg.

AndyMitchell

You and I know Fadi, that anyone can biuld a better looking stronger physique with just a bar and plates, dipping bar and chin-up bar.

Although - having my time over I would have done more work with dumb-bells.

lazy

Machines are great when you can't do deadlifts or squats, I mean its better than nothing.

AndyMitchell

For some, a machine is better.
Machines chosen correctly can replace them very well indeed.