dextrose

[brent_brent]

gday lads how just interested to know how much dextrose u take post workout for me its about 40g protein and 50g dextrose not really sure whats best

 

[Christian]

I was doing 50g post/during..

 

[dave]

15 pre and 15 post, enough to spike insulin and replace some glycogen, not too much to overdo it. 30g WPC each shot.

 

[brent_brent]

why would you have it pre workout no need to replenish anything after workout if u ask me but thats justy my thoughts and 15 after probably a waste to u could get that from eating a couple of snake lollies i was thinking anywhere from 40g-80g im 6foot 98kg so 50+ for me but interesting to hear the thoughts of others thanks for the reply lads

 

[Christian]

Alot of stuff says no carbs post work out is better for anabolism...

Alot of info says carbs post work our are better for anabolism...

Carbs pre are for cortisol and energy just in case...

 

[dave]

I think you need to research peri workout nutrition a bit more, I can not be bothered going into at 12 at night on my phone, but I'll post something later. Basically having a huge insulin spike isn't needed, also 30g of dextrose will replenish glycogen during and after the workout, also my meal post workout will do the rest.
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[brent_brent]

if u mean during then thats fine to have dextrose during and or after workout but before workout never heard that one what how soon before workout we talking 1 hour 30 min 1 min lol

 

[Christian]

You have never heard of a pre and during workout shake?

 

[dave]

He has never heard of pre workout shakes. Seriously go do some research you sound like you have learnt mostnof your nutrition in the gym.
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[brent_brent]

as i said mate read above i have heard of during and after why would you have it pre dextrose/glucose only takes 3 min to enter the blood so lets say u took it 1hour or 30 min b4 a workout what would the point of that be why spike your insulin when ur not even in the gym yet thats just stupid during and or after training is the way to go

 

[Christian]

By pre im talking about im walking into the gym.. Its still pre work out i havnt started

thats why its pre/during

 

[dave]

Noobs give up it's not worth the added cortisol for you.

Here are a few posts I made on another forum, take the important info out of it (hormonal changes).
Now we are going passed the basics, I'll go into it in more detail later as I am at work. But yes using insulin to blunt cortisol abd glucagon is one of the main points of using sugars. Though if you take a preworkout shake with simple sugars your insulin levels should be enough to alleviate this then using a post WO shake would help alleviate this post workout. The use of leucine will increase insulin levels but (I can not remember off the top of my head) the levels are still low when compared to sugars affect of insulin secretion. So if you are already getting lots of insulin pre workout leucine use during workout may not have much of an effect, though as I said if you have the money to spare or get it from a sponsor then taking it to make sure there is no drop below the levels that leucine can stimulate wouldn't hurt but to the average Joe to cost to benefit ratio would be small. Now as you pointed out if you were limiting carbs then yes use of leucine would be smart.



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[brent_brent]

well i was talking about that b4 glad u informed me now i get ya but still not 100 percent why people do say to have it during as im sure you would not be fatigued like 10-20 min into a workout so why the glycogen replenishment then why not just save the it for the end when u really do need it if u want some energy to help u lift pre workout have some carbs but mayb u guys can infor me not being a smart ass but would be glad if u would inform me a bit more if not mayb others might be able to help

 

[Christian]

Life isnt perfect, nor is eating...

Slow acting carbs wont induce insulin response like simple sugars...

I am avoiding carbs Post now anyway... There is alot of infomation available on why to do so.. I think it was on nissan silvia someone posted these audio things from a dr that explained it all in very good detail. Also carbless pwo is a big thing on another board i am on and they get alot of good results in terms of body composition..

 

[dave]

More:

There are loads of differing opinions by people who have researched it a lot more than I have. Some believe due to protein being able to saturate cells (marked by no increase in protein synthesis with added insulin or protein) without the need of a high insulin spike that not ingesting carbs but ensuring enough leucine is present to promote just enough of an insulin response is all that is needed. So they may take a WPI with added leucine or EAA's with extra leucine to get this effect. These people are removing the glycogen replenishment and lowering of catchecholamines from the equation though and just focussing on the fact that protein synthesis is all important. But the when you look at the fact that an insulin increase also promotes a subsequent cortisol release they both play the opposites of each other BUT we only want insulin up and not cortisol BUT it's impossible to do. So maybe limiting insulin to just enough to get the maximal protein synthesis and a reduction in glucagon is best. Then without the extra increase in cortisol (which will be increasing anyway during exercise) you may be more anabolic than just going nuts with insulin. As you can see it is a pretty tough topic in theory as it really depends on how much hormone secretion you can get and how much the hormones interact with each other and cancel one another out etc. But glycogen restoration with a limited insulin increase may be a better idea in the end to promote lower cortisol but then again the insulin increase may cancel out the effects of cortisol enough to warrant its use. You would really need to research a lot into the latest studies to get this info and at the moment (I am doing my masters in Exercise Rehab so I am really working on musclo-skeletal stuff not endocrinology stuff at the moment) I do not have the time to delve further. It is something I would do later on though as it is a really finicky subject. That is why I suggested just doing whatever is within your means and keeps you consistent, as there are differing opinions that all make sense physiologically (theory).

So in summary the increase of Insulin needed depends on its affects on mitigating Glucagon secretion and Cortisol's effects while promoting protein and glycogen synthesis. Keeping your blood supplied with amino acids (glutamine and BCAA's especially) and glucose is also an important factor to keep cortisol's catabolic effects in hand is also important. Now if you took in EAA's and a small amount of glucose during your workout to keep your blood amino and glucose levels up this may mitigate some of cortisol's damage, something like 20g EAA's with 10-20g glucose sipped over the workout. A pre insulin spike will inhibit glucagon and promote insulin secretion which in turn would promote protein synthesis and glycogen synthesis and for this you may want 20-30g glucose and either 20g EAA's or 20g WPI. Post workout the replenishment of glycogen stores, mitigation of cortisol and continued promotion of protein synthesis is important so maybe a large insulin spike then is not as needed as pre workout. Just a side note Vitamin C supplementation (over 3 grams a day) is supposed to reduce your cortisol, so that may also be good to take in some Vit C PW. So you may want to take in 1-2g of Vit C, glutamine and BCAA's (either in a WPI or EAA complex or both together) and ingest 10-20g glucose.
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[brent_brent]

cheers no probs

 

[Christian]

More:

There are loads of differing opinions by people who have researched it a lot more than I have. Some believe due to protein being able to saturate cells (marked by no increase in protein synthesis with added insulin or protein) without the need of a high insulin spike that not ingesting carbs but ensuring enough leucine is present to promote just enough of an insulin response is all that is needed. So they may take a WPI with added leucine or EAA's with extra leucine to get this effect. These people are removing the glycogen replenishment and lowering of catchecholamines from the equation though and just focussing on the fact that protein synthesis is all important. But the when you look at the fact that an insulin increase also promotes a subsequent cortisol release they both play the opposites of each other BUT we only want insulin up and not cortisol BUT it's impossible to do. So maybe limiting insulin to just enough to get the maximal protein synthesis and a reduction in glucagon is best. Then without the extra increase in cortisol (which will be increasing anyway during exercise) you may be more anabolic than just going nuts with insulin. As you can see it is a pretty tough topic in theory as it really depends on how much hormone secretion you can get and how much the hormones interact with each other and cancel one another out etc. But glycogen restoration with a limited insulin increase may be a better idea in the end to promote lower cortisol but then again the insulin increase may cancel out the effects of cortisol enough to warrant its use. You would really need to research a lot into the latest studies to get this info and at the moment (I am doing my masters in Exercise Rehab so I am really working on musclo-skeletal stuff not endocrinology stuff at the moment) I do not have the time to delve further. It is something I would do later on though as it is a really finicky subject. That is why I suggested just doing whatever is within your means and keeps you consistent, as there are differing opinions that all make sense physiologically (theory).

So in summary the increase of Insulin needed depends on its affects on mitigating Glucagon secretion and Cortisol's effects while promoting protein and glycogen synthesis. Keeping your blood supplied with amino acids (glutamine and BCAA's especially) and glucose is also an important factor to keep cortisol's catabolic effects in hand is also important. Now if you took in EAA's and a small amount of glucose during your workout to keep your blood amino and glucose levels up this may mitigate some of cortisol's damage, something like 20g EAA's with 10-20g glucose sipped over the workout. A pre insulin spike will inhibit glucagon and promote insulin secretion which in turn would promote protein synthesis and glycogen synthesis and for this you may want 20-30g glucose and either 20g EAA's or 20g WPI. Post workout the replenishment of glycogen stores, mitigation of cortisol and continued promotion of protein synthesis is important so maybe a large insulin spike then is not as needed as pre workout. Just a side note Vitamin C supplementation (over 3 grams a day) is supposed to reduce your cortisol, so that may also be good to take in some Vit C PW. So you may want to take in 1-2g of Vit C, glutamine and BCAA's (either in a WPI or EAA complex or both together) and ingest 10-20g glucose.
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Tried to rep you for an epic response i couldnt be bothered to give well done!

 

[Fadi]

so lets say u took it 1hour or 30 min b4 a workout what would the point of that be why spike your insulin when ur not even in the gym yet thats just stupid during and or after training is the way to go

I would love to see some comas and full stops if possible please, it would make life much easier and you would not be misunderstood, thank you.

I fully agree with you re the above in that there would be no point. However it is you who is supposing this extraordinary time factor and no one else here as far as I've been reading. Where did you get 1 hour and 30 minutes from and how is it you've never heard of pre workout insulin spiking?


Fadi.

 

[dave]

Thanks noobs there is more but it was just the basic science.
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[brent_brent]

well he said pre workout and didnt give a time frame so i was asking how long 1 hour 30 min ??? mayb read the the whole stotry first mate i would hardly call dextrose as u are walking into the gym pre workout so u start drinking it 1 min b4 u lift a dumbbell and the class that as pre ur kidding right