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Big Mick

"2014 - Kunce of the year"
The RDA for protein intake is 0.8 grams per kilo of lean body mass. Sellers of protein powder seem to promote to double that intake with little to no real evidence to support this number.

I really don't believe any gym goer, really needs to greatly exceed 0.8 grams of protein.

The RDA would translate to a person with a lean body weight of 100kg be looking at 80 grams of protein a day.

Considering that 100grams of chicken contains 27 grams of protein and 100 grams of beef contains around 26 grams of protein (and all other meats are about the same), a 300gram serve of pretty much any meat will cover a 100kg man for his daily protein and amino acid needs.

Now we are talking a 100kg lean body mass man here, not many people are 100kg lean body mass, I regularly see 50kg women and 70kg men chugging down several protein drinks a day. A 50kg women is looking at needing around 40 grams a day (150 grams of meat) and a 70kg man around 56 grams a day (250 grams of meat).

Even if you want to exceed that number by a bit 'just to be sure' anyone eating a normal diet (not vegan or similar) will easily meet any protein needs they may have and in most cases well exceed those needs without any need for supplementary protein concoctions.

Some High Protein foods (Animal Based)
Chicken/Pork/Beef - 25-27g per 100g
Tuna - 30g per 100g
Whole eggs - 13g per 100g (not really that high)
Salmon 20g per 100g

Non animal based:
Lentils 9g per 100g
Wall Nuts 15g per 100g (higher than eggs)
Tofu 8 grams per 100g
Spinach 3g per 100g
Peas 5g per 100g
Sprouts 4g per 100g
Mushrooms 3g per 100g
Kale 4.5g per 100g
Potato 2g per 100g

Looking at the above short list of foods containing protein lets look at a basic meal, if dinner was a 200-300g piece of meat with some mushrooms, potatoes, peas, or spinach the daily protein needs of a 100kg person would be well and truly met with dinner alone.

That's before you even consider breakfast and lunch if you had an egg or two for breakfast and a tin of tuna on toast for lunch you would even be close to meeting the supposedly ideal Bodybuilding protein requirement of 1.5-2 grams per kilo day.

Let the discussion begin and let's see all the 'I need my shake or I will waste away posts'
 
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Timeah

Captain Kunce
1.8-2.2gm/kg is the genral consensus amongst protein researchers.
.8gm per kg of LBM would not be enough for me i do not beleive. That would be like 64gms. Per day. Not gunna cut it IMO.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
 

White_Lie

Look at Moi, I'm a Kunce
A couple of points where I will disagree...
1) 0.8g/kg by the RDA is their number to simply maintain your current mass. They're not interested in promoting muscle growth, which surely requires a higher than normal intake?
2) That's for the average male which means an average activity level. I would say resistance training 3-7 days per week, plus cardio is higher than average, so again, surely a higher than average intake is required even for maintenance? They also say that the leaner the body mass the higher the protein intake should be.
3) The RDA also recommends 130g of carbs for the average adult (weight, sex etc don't play a role apparently), do you agree with this number even for a 100kg male?

Playing around with total cals based on the RDA, only 320 (0.8 x 100 x 4) come from protein and 520 (130 x 4) from carbs. The RDA for fat is 20-35% of total cals.
A 100kg male needs around 2700 cals just to maintain that weight. Take out the 840 from protein and carbs and you're left with 1860 or 68% of the diet that is supposed to come from fats? The numbers just don't stack up if you go solely on RDA requirements, they contradict themselves

The balancing act comes in with eating "proper" meals and not exceeding calories or grams of carbs & fats just to get the protein in. A supplement can assist with this as they can be high in one area but low in others. Just the same as supplementing protein, you can also supplement carbs and fats. Look at people that use fish oil or add dextrose to their shakes. Are these unnecessary just like protein powder if you can get it from other sources?
 
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spartacus

New member
a couple of studies suggest 1.7 grams per kg for those seeking to build muscle and athletes. I have them in my book, but rather busy at moment to look them up
 

Bazza20

New member
I'm currently losing weight at 1kg a week for the last 11 weeks. If all I ate in my calorie allowances was the Helgas bread I like, I would be getting over 160g of protein from that alone. Lol. Of course I'm not only eating bread. Add meat in there and hitting and likely going way over protein requirements are no problem.

People have been suckered in by the supp compaines marketing. I also think supps are part of just being a gym rat and that culture. People feel special taking them, like they are better than the average joe who doesn't supp his diet. Also it's a lot easier to suck back a protein shake and convince yourself that you making gains than get out there and do the hard work.
 

Big Mick

"2014 - Kunce of the year"
QUOTE=White_Lie;739641]A couple of points where I will disagree...
1) 0.8g/kg by the RDA is their number to simply maintain your current mass. They're not interested in promoting muscle growth, which surely requires a higher than normal intake?[/QUOTE]

You missed my point I think, crunch some numbers and see how much protein you would actually consume in a day, it would well exceed .8 of a gram without any additional protein shakes


2) That's for the average male which means an average activity level. I would say resistance training 3-7 days per week, plus cardio is higher than average, so again, surely a higher than average intake is required even for maintenance? They also say that the leaner the body mass the higher the protein intake should be.

Read my reply to your first question.


3) The RDA also recommends 130g of carbs for the average adult (weight, sex etc don't play a role apparently), do you agree with this number even for a 100kg male?

But your statement confuses what average is, a 100kg male is not average so would not be consuming an average amount of carbs. According to surveys the average Australian male is somewhere around the 85kg mark, so I would guess the 130g of carbs you refer to in your question would relate to the 85kg male.

But you must also consider that carbs are not essential, there is no such thing as essential carbs, there is no carb requirement that you must consume for a healthy lifestyle, you can happily exist with no carbs, the same can't be said for protein or fats though.

Personally I don't generally monitor my carb intake, I try and keep carbs as low as possible but I am not anal about not eating carbs, I normally don't consume large amounts of carbs though. I generally do not eat bread or only do so rarely may be the odd sandwich when I am am out and about. The $2.50 Bunnings sausage sandwich two Sundays ago was the last time I had bread, it's not something I eat on a daily basis as part of my normal diet, I will have rice when the meal I am having requires it (had curry last night so I had rice).


Playing around with total cals based on the RDA, only 320 (0.8 x 100 x 4) come from protein and 520 (130 x 4) from carbs. The RDA for fat is 20-35% of total cals.
A 100kg male needs around 2700 cals just to maintain that weight. Take out the 840 from protein and carbs and you're left with 1860 or 68% of the diet that is supposed to come from fats? The numbers just don't stack up if you go solely on RDA requirements, they contradict themselves

You need to compare apples with apples, you are confusing yourself on the term average. Eating is not that difficult, have your daily protein intake and fat intake and then eat the rest of your calories with whatever you like, Most people easily meed their protein demands as outlines earlier, if you eat 300 grams of meat/fish etc and a few veggies you are covered especially if you don't weigh 100kg. 300g is not a lot.

The balancing act comes in with eating "proper" meals and not exceeding calories or grams of carbs & fats just to get the protein in. A supplement can assist with this as they can be high in one area but low in others. Just the same as supplementing protein, you can also supplement carbs and fats. Look at people that use fish oil or add dextrose to their shakes. Are these unnecessary just like protein powder if you can get it from other sources?

Most definitely not required, I know people use dextrose to spike insulin and there are other specific reasons for doing so which are part of a whole 'system' of eating (carb back loading etc) which is fine if that is what they are following (I tried it a while back and it does appear to have some benefits) but I doubt there is a need for the avaerage trainer eating normally to 'supplement' with dextrose as they are having a dextrose deficiency.
 

Big Mick

"2014 - Kunce of the year"
I'm currently losing weight at 1kg a week for the last 11 weeks. If all I ate in my calorie allowances was the Helgas bread I like, I would be getting over 160g of protein from that alone. Lol. Of course I'm not only eating bread. Add meat in there and hitting and likely going way over protein requirements are no problem.

People have been suckered in by the supp compaines marketing. I also think supps are part of just being a gym rat and that culture. People feel special taking them, like they are better than the average joe who doesn't supp his diet. Also it's a lot easier to suck back a protein shake and convince yourself that you making gains than get out there and do the hard work.

I think the single best post you have made on this forum in the past few years, not just because it somewhat agrees with my view point but also because it is total common sense and sums up in a few short concise lines what would take me pages of writing to try and explain.
 

Big Mick

"2014 - Kunce of the year"
A couple of points where I will disagree...
1) 0.8g/kg by the RDA is their number to simply maintain your current mass. They're not interested in promoting muscle growth, which surely requires a higher than normal intake?

You missed my point I think, crunch some numbers and see how much protein you would actually consume in a day, it would well exceed .8 of a gram without any additional protein shakes

2) That's for the average male which means an average activity level. I would say resistance training 3-7 days per week, plus cardio is higher than average, so again, surely a higher than average intake is required even for maintenance? They also say that the leaner the body mass the higher the protein intake should be.

Read my reply to your first question.

3) The RDA also recommends 130g of carbs for the average adult (weight, sex etc don't play a role apparently), do you agree with this number even for a 100kg male?

But your statement confuses what average is, a 100kg male is not average so would not be consuming an average amount of carbs. According to surveys the average Australian male is somewhere around the 85kg mark, so I would guess the 130g of carbs you refer to in your question would relate to the 85kg male.

But you must also consider that carbs are not essential, there is no such thing as essential carbs, there is no carb requirement that you must consume for a healthy lifestyle, you can happily exist with no carbs, the same can't be said for protein or fats though.

Personally I don't generally monitor my carb intake, I try and keep carbs as low as possible but I am not anal about not eating carbs, I normally don't consume large amounts of carbs though. I generally do not eat bread or only do so rarely may be the odd sandwich when I am am out and about. The $2.50 Bunnings sausage sandwich two Sundays ago was the last time I had bread, it's not something I eat on a daily basis as part of my normal diet, I will have rice when the meal I am having requires it (had curry last night so I had rice).


Playing around with total cals based on the RDA, only 320 (0.8 x 100 x 4) come from protein and 520 (130 x 4) from carbs. The RDA for fat is 20-35% of total cals.
A 100kg male needs around 2700 cals just to maintain that weight. Take out the 840 from protein and carbs and you're left with 1860 or 68% of the diet that is supposed to come from fats? The numbers just don't stack up if you go solely on RDA requirements, they contradict themselves

You need to compare apples with apples, you are confusing yourself on the term average. Eating is not that difficult, have your daily protein intake and fat intake and then eat the rest of your calories with whatever you like, Most people easily meed their protein demands as outlines earlier, if you eat 300 grams of meat/fish etc and a few veggies you are covered especially if you don't weigh 100kg. 300g is not a lot.

The balancing act comes in with eating "proper" meals and not exceeding calories or grams of carbs & fats just to get the protein in. A supplement can assist with this as they can be high in one area but low in others. Just the same as supplementing protein, you can also supplement carbs and fats. Look at people that use fish oil or add dextrose to their shakes. Are these unnecessary just like protein powder if you can get it from other sources?

Most definitely not required, I know people use dextrose to spike insulin and there are other specific reasons for doing so which are part of a whole 'system' of eating (carb back loading etc) which is fine if that is what they are following (I tried it a while back and it does appear to have some benefits) but I doubt there is a need for the avaerage trainer eating normally to 'supplement' with dextrose as they are having a dextrose deficiency.
 

Timeah

Captain Kunce
I dont get my numbers from any supp companies.

I get them from key research people in the field of sports nutrition.

Im currently eating an average of 215gm per day. 46gm comes from powder in my morning smoothie which is all kinds of epic. Haha.

Losing on average 0.4kg per week.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
 

Bazza20

New member
The case for protein powders is they can work out cheaper per gram of protein than meat. Roughly similar cost per g protein to eggs, milk, cheese. So the argument is they could substitute the meat protein in the diet to reduce cost but no one does that. They throw it on top so actually spending more because protein is usually the most expensive macro in the diet.

End of the day I don't care what anyone here does. Eat how you want and feel works for you but bit of fun here actually having a BBing discussion for once.
 

White_Lie

Look at Moi, I'm a Kunce
You missed my point I think, crunch some numbers and see how much protein you would actually consume in a day, it would well exceed .8 of a gram without any additional protein shakes



Read my reply to your first question.



But your statement confuses what average is, a 100kg male is not average so would not be consuming an average amount of carbs. According to surveys the average Australian male is somewhere around the 85kg mark, so I would guess the 130g of carbs you refer to in your question would relate to the 85kg male.

But you must also consider that carbs are not essential, there is no such thing as essential carbs, there is no carb requirement that you must consume for a healthy lifestyle, you can happily exist with no carbs, the same can't be said for protein or fats though.

Personally I don't generally monitor my carb intake, I try and keep carbs as low as possible but I am not anal about not eating carbs, I normally don't consume large amounts of carbs though. I generally do not eat bread or only do so rarely may be the odd sandwich when I am am out and about. The $2.50 Bunnings sausage sandwich two Sundays ago was the last time I had bread, it's not something I eat on a daily basis as part of my normal diet, I will have rice when the meal I am having requires it (had curry last night so I had rice).




You need to compare apples with apples, you are confusing yourself on the term average. Eating is not that difficult, have your daily protein intake and fat intake and then eat the rest of your calories with whatever you like, Most people easily meed their protein demands as outlines earlier, if you eat 300 grams of meat/fish etc and a few veggies you are covered especially if you don't weigh 100kg. 300g is not a lot.



Most definitely not required, I know people use dextrose to spike insulin and there are other specific reasons for doing so which are part of a whole 'system' of eating (carb back loading etc) which is fine if that is what they are following (I tried it a while back and it does appear to have some benefits) but I doubt there is a need for the avaerage trainer eating normally to 'supplement' with dextrose as they are having a dextrose deficiency.
That's not my point at all. It's that 0.8g/kg isn't enough to promote muscle growth. You need double or more, which ends up at the 1.5-2g mark again.

I only eat 2 meals per day and supplement 50g of protein via powder. I don't eat 300g of meat for lunch and then again for dinner. Sure I could eat another meal or completely change what I eat but why? What I'm doing is working for me, so that's all I'm concerned about.

If you're saying to make up the rest of your calories eating whatever you want, why can't you make it up with a shake? It's cheaper than buying a kilo of steak and a lot more convenient than buying a cheap cut of meat and cooking it for 8 hours.

The 130g of carbs is across the board. Doesn't matter if you're a 40kg female or 100kg male, that's what they recommend. Nothing to do with 100kg supposedly being average.
 
Nothing satisfies my hunger like a piece of meat or a bowl of oats.

when I was younger I could not eat enough food, playing sport and working out and growing demands food, it wasn't fun, a protien shake had no place in my diet back then.

these days a protein shake now and again is handy, I've just got to watch the sugar content
 

Big Mick

"2014 - Kunce of the year"
That's not my point at all. It's that 0.8g/kg isn't enough to promote muscle growth. You need double or more, which ends up at the 1.5-2g mark again.

I only eat 2 meals per day and supplement 50g of protein via powder. I don't eat 300g of meat for lunch and then again for dinner. Sure I could eat another meal or completely change what I eat but why? What I'm doing is working for me, so that's all I'm concerned about.

If you're saying to make up the rest of your calories eating whatever you want, why can't you make it up with a shake? It's cheaper than buying a kilo of steak and a lot more convenient than buying a cheap cut of meat and cooking it for 8 hours.

The 130g of carbs is across the board. Doesn't matter if you're a 40kg female or 100kg male, that's what they recommend. Nothing to do with 100kg supposedly being average.

You need to read what was written and understand what is being said.

You can make it up with a protein shake, no one said you can't and it was never suggested that you can't, what I am suggesting is that it's not necessary, You do not need to have aprotein shake just because you train with weights, I don't know how much you weigh or any of your personal eating habits but I would be willing to bet that you consume more than adequate amounts of protein without a shake and that the shake's only purpose is to make the seller rich and create extremely expensive excrement from you.

If you feel like having a shake you can have it, but do it for the right reasons, not because you believe it provides you any gains or additional training related benefits that you would not otherwise have anyway.

It would almost be impossible to eat your daily calories in a normally balanced diet of normal food (not living off cakes etc obviously) and not meet your calorie demands, like Bazza mentioned earlier even if he ate his whole daily calorie allowance in Helgas bread he would still be getting 160 grams of Protein daily.

Have you ever tried not having a shake for 3 months, and then have it for three months? If yes what difference did you note?? I can tell you there is no difference apart from an extra couple of hundred bucks in your bank. I used to have shakes like they are going out of fashion, all it did was deplete my bank account and leave a bad taste in my mouth (literally) in most cases.
 
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Bazza20

New member
But your statement confuses what average is, a 100kg male is not average so would not be consuming an average amount of carbs. According to surveys the average Australian male is somewhere around the 85kg mark, so I would guess the 130g of carbs you refer to in your question would relate to the 85kg male.

But you must also consider that carbs are not essential, there is no such thing as essential carbs, there is no carb requirement that you must consume for a healthy lifestyle, you can happily exist with no carbs, the same can't be said for protein or fats though.

Personally I don't generally monitor my carb intake, I try and keep carbs as low as possible but I am not anal about not eating carbs, I normally don't consume large amounts of carbs though. I generally do not eat bread or only do so rarely may be the odd sandwich when I am am out and about. The $2.50 Bunnings sausage sandwich two Sundays ago was the last time I had bread, it's not something I eat on a daily basis as part of my normal diet, I will have rice when the meal I am having requires it (had curry last night so I had rice).




You need to compare apples with apples, you are confusing yourself on the term average. Eating is not that difficult, have your daily protein intake and fat intake and then eat the rest of your calories with whatever you like, Most people easily meed their protein demands as outlines earlier, if you eat 300 grams of meat/fish etc and a few veggies you are covered especially if you don't weigh 100kg. 300g is not a lot.



Most definitely not required, I know people use dextrose to spike insulin and there are other specific reasons for doing so which are part of a whole 'system' of eating (carb back loading etc) which is fine if that is what they are following (I tried it a while back and it does appear to have some benefits) but I doubt there is a need for the avaerage trainer eating normally to 'supplement' with dextrose as they are having a dextrose deficiency.

Personally I know I can't happily exist without carbs. I've seen plenty of dietitians and coaches say the same. Many people don't run well on low carb especially the more active people.
 

White_Lie

Look at Moi, I'm a Kunce
I don't either. Cranky/moody and just flat feeling like I CBF doing anything or don't have the energy to do anything.

They may not be essential for a normal human to stay alive but like protein, the needs differ when you are training
 

spartacus

New member
well if you were an athlete needing 6,000+ calories per day, i say good luck without carbs to fuel high energy needs.
 

Big Mick

"2014 - Kunce of the year"
Personally I know I can't happily exist without carbs. I've seen plenty of dietitians and coaches say the same. Many people don't run well on low carb especially the more active people.

You know your body best, if you like a certain amount of carbs there is nothing stopping you from consuming them, but I doubt you would have to resort to adding dextrose to shakes to meet your daily carb allocation.
 

Big Mick

"2014 - Kunce of the year"
I don't either. Cranky/moody and just flat feeling like I CBF doing anything or don't have the energy to do anything.

They may not be essential for a normal human to stay alive but like protein, the needs differ when you are training

Some people need carbs or think they need carbs, there is no carb need for training, people are addicted to carbs just like they are addicted to coffee and pre workout drinks and cigarettes etc, that addiction is caused by insulin, eat carbs get a spike once spike goes away people crave more carbs to get another spike, just like junkies need another hit of drugs.

I find I feel better and function better the less carbs I have, mind is clearer, feel more energised, and definitely have more spring in my step.

If I eat a carb heavy meal like pasta or a lot of bread or rice or eat cake doughnuts etc I feel lethargic and like crap, all I want to do is lay around and go to sleep, I always seem to fall back into the trap, going good, and I will get sucked into having a couple of Krispy Creme Doughnuts or similar as everyone around me is having them, or a plate of Lasagna at a party of something and I instantly feel like crap.
 

Big Mick

"2014 - Kunce of the year"
well if you were an athlete needing 6,000+ calories per day, i say good luck without carbs to fuel high energy needs.

If I was a fish I could breathe under water, not really relevant though, I doubt too many people, even gym rates require 6000 plus calories a day.
 

spartacus

New member
you could get calories from fat, but ho much nuts and olive oil can one consume. i think there is a reason why tour of france riders eat lots of carbs. some studies also show that higher carbs is better for actual competition wen power is required, although not much difference for moderate training.

I now eat about a third of calories from fat.
 
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