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Shredding advice

nobullsupplements

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Hi Guys, Van here from No Bull Supplements Australia.

Hope you've all been doing well.

Whilst some of you might be interested in bulking, adding on the mass - I just wanted to dedicate some part of this forum to those who are interested in shredding, like myself. Around this time last year, I was on 78kg (I'm 173) and decided to shred and reduce my body fat percentage. I reckon I was on about 15%. Now I'm on 68kg and under 10%. My goal is 65kg and 7-8% by the end of the year.

How I cut down on the fat? Well, my number one advice is to increase metabolism! This is what let me down since childhood - I was one to easy put on weight. I sped up my metabolism several ways:
- green tea daily
- plenty of water, always carry a bottle around and fill it up whenever you can
- plenty of skim milk, I have it twice a day with my WPC morning/night (and water for my WPI post workout)
- cut down on the confectionary
- carbs only in the morning, and at lunch. Stay away from them at night - I suggest just having meat, fish, etc without the rice, pasta or noodles in the evening
- cheap days are okay - but if you know you'll be eating out at night, why not compensate by cutting down on carbs in the morning or during the day? Makes you feel less guilty, whilst enjoying your night out
- I also quit alcohol in 2011.

Those are my tips - whether they're effective or not, feel free to criticise but it's what got me to where I am, and I haven't changed any of the above from my diet. Feel free to share your thoughts and suggestions!

All the best
Van
No Bull Supplements Australia
No Bull Supplements Australia
 
Look at these fellas for tiny - [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Vn0zTih4U]YouTube - ‪SEA Games 2007 - Men's Bodybuilding 70kg Final‬‏[/ame]
 
Hi Guys, Van here from No Bull Supplements Australia.

Hope you've all been doing well.

Whilst some of you might be interested in bulking, adding on the mass - I just wanted to dedicate some part of this forum to those who are interested in shredding, like myself. Around this time last year, I was on 78kg (I'm 173) and decided to shred and reduce my body fat percentage. I reckon I was on about 15%. Now I'm on 68kg and under 10%. My goal is 65kg and 7-8% by the end of the year.

How I cut down on the fat? Well, my number one advice is to increase metabolism! This is what let me down since childhood - I was one to easy put on weight. I sped up my metabolism several ways:
- green tea daily
- plenty of water, always carry a bottle around and fill it up whenever you can
- plenty of skim milk, I have it twice a day with my WPC morning/night (and water for my WPI post workout)
- cut down on the confectionary
- carbs only in the morning, and at lunch. Stay away from them at night - I suggest just having meat, fish, etc without the rice, pasta or noodles in the evening
- cheap days are okay - but if you know you'll be eating out at night, why not compensate by cutting down on carbs in the morning or during the day? Makes you feel less guilty, whilst enjoying your night out
- I also quit alcohol in 2011.

Those are my tips - whether they're effective or not, feel free to criticise but it's what got me to where I am, and I haven't changed any of the above from my diet. Feel free to share your thoughts and suggestions!

All the best
Van
No Bull Supplements Australia
No Bull Supplements Australia

Fantastic work on your results. :)

I would say though, that it was because you had an appropriate calorie deficit is the reason you got the results you did. Cutting 'carbs' out at night doesn't have effect on body recomposition. It is the manipulation of marconutrient intake to support the required goal, not the timing of marconutrient intake. As long as the daily macronutrient requirements are met, everything else is of little to no relevance.

I again congratulate you on your achievements.
 
I wasn't disagreeing with that point.

I was disagreeing with the point you made about there being absolutely no correlation to when you eat any sort of food how it might affect the building of lean tissue.

I may be completely out of my depth, but how do you justify the role insulin plays in building lean tissue, if the macronutrient timing is of no concern?
 
I wasn't disagreeing with that point.

I was disagreeing with the point you made about there being absolutely no correlation to when you eat any sort of food how it might affect the building of lean tissue.

I may be completely out of my depth, but how do you justify the role insulin plays in building lean tissue, if the macronutrient timing is of no concern?
I certainly don't disregard the fact insulin play A PART in muscle growth but so do a number of hormones. Testosterone for one is more of a contributing hormone for muscle growth than insulin, saturated fat is an integral piece in the process is responsible for the testosterone, but if you listen to most saturated fat is BAD.
Many of the typical 'nutritional guidelines' and 'timing of nutrients' have come from the supplement industry and people who are intertwined with that (magazines etc).

In the end its same same with the no correlation of late night carbohydrate intake to fat loss as with nutrient timing and muscle growth.

Our body has a number of mechanisms/ process that super-compensate any number of functions/ hormonal balances. It evolutionary.

Think about it, say with protein, Whey protein digests at 10 grams an hour tops. If you total daily protein intake is from only as an example Whey protein, your 200 grams would take at the very least 20 hours to fully be digested! Add into that the addition of carbohydrates and fats, that will slow the process down even further.

So you can surely see how meal timing is of no relevance. It is just like the whole GI load of carbohydrates, once mixed with other nutrients the GI is lowered instantly. Having a meal an hour before training for example, caused and insulin response above baseline for the following 2 hours after. So that totally dispels the post workout with carbs for the insulin spike myth.

Please read this by Alan Aragon -

Hierarchy of Importance

When speaking of nutrition for improving body composition or training performance, it's crucial to realize there's an underlying hierarchy of importance. At the top of the hierarchy is total amount of the macronutrients by the end of the day. Distantly below that is the precise timing of those nutrients. With very few exceptions, athletes and active individuals eat multiple times per day. Thus, the majority of their day is spent in the postprandial (fed) rather than a post-absorptive (fasted) state. The vast majority of nutrient timing studies have been done on overnight-fasted subjects put through glycogen depletion protocols, which obviously limits the applicability of the outcomes. Pre-exercise (and/or during-exercise) nutrient intake often has a lingering carry-over effect into the post-exercise period. Throughout the day, there's a constant overlap of meal digestion & nutrient absorption. For this reason, the effectiveness of nutrient timing does not require a high degree of precision.

The Primary Laws of Nutrient Timing
The First Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
The Second Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.

I can go into it more indepth if you wish but otherwise maybe have a read of the links as I'm sure it will explain it better than I will -

Hormonal Responses to a Fast-Food Meal Compared with Nutritionally Comparable Meals of Different Composition – Research Review | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

Meal Frequency and Energy Balance | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

Better Blood Glucose with Lower Meal Frequency | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health

Top Ten Fasting Myths Debunked (Major Update Nov 4th) | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health
 
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A similar subject related to the whole insulin hormone (again Alan Aragon explains to any other person under the common mis-conception of the anabolic window)

The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours:Enhanced amino acid sensitivity of myofibrillar pr... [J Nutr. 2011] - PubMed result

More from earlier in the thread:

Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.
Properly done preworkout nutrition EASILY elevates insulin above and beyond the maximal threshold seen to inhibit muscle protein breakdown. This insulin elevation resulting from the preworkout meal can persist long after your resistance training bout is done. Therefore, thinking you need to spike anything is only the result of neglecting your preworkout nutrition"
 
Another great article articulate by Alan Aragon (in only way I dream of being able to put across LOL) on meal frequency and protein utilization -

Introduction

A longstanding belief in fitness circles is that the body can only use a certain amount of protein per meal, and the excess is either oxidized or excreted. The ballpark range thrown around is 20-30 grams, with 30 grams being perhaps the most common figure.

This guideline has led many trainees to go through the pains of consuming multiple doses of protein throughout the day, banking that it will maximize muscle anabolism or muscle retention.

Well, true or not, this concept fits in nicely with another longstanding fitness “rule” that you have to eat at least six times per day in order to keep the body’s metabolism revving high. Since the meal frequency and metabolism dogma has been thoroughly debunked [1-5], it’s time to dig into the topic of whether there’s a limit to effective protein dosing, and if so, what that limit might be.

Looking at simple logic first

Let’s imagine an experiment involving two relatively lean 200 lb individuals. For the purposes of this illustration, I’ll assign a daily amount of protein known to adequately support the needs of the athletic population. We’ll give Person A 150 g protein spread over five meals at 30 g each. We’ll give Person B the same amount of protein, but in a single meal. Let’s say that this meal consists of a 16 oz steak, chased with a shake containing two scoops of protein powder.

If we really believed that only 30 g protein can be handled by the body in a single meal, then Person B would eventually run into protein deficiency symptoms because he supposedly is only absorbing a total of 30 g out of the 150 g we’re giving him. At 30 g/day, he’s only getting 0.33 g/kg of bodyweight, which isn’t even half of the already-low RDA of 0.8 g/kg. If the body worked this way, the human species would have quickly become extinct. The human body is more efficient and effective than we give it credit for.

The body will take all the sweet time it needs to effectively digest and absorb just about whatever dose you give it. Person A will have shorter digestion periods per meal in order to effectively absorb and utilize the small meals. Person B will have a longer digestion period in order to effectively absorb and utilize the large meal. While the truth in this logic seems self-evident, the important question is whether or not it’s supported by scientific research. Let’s look at the evidence, starting with immediate-effect (acute) studies, then move on to the longer-term trials.

Research examining speed of absorption

A thorough literature review by Bilsborough and Mann compiled data from studies by various investigators who measured the absorption rates of various protein sources [6]. Oddly, an amino acid mixture designed to mimic the composition of pork tenderloin made the top spot, at 10 g/hour, while whey took a close second at 8-10 g/hour. Other proteins fell in their respective spots below the top two, with little rhyme or reason behind the outcomes. As a matter of trivia, raw egg protein was the most slowly absorbed of them all at 1.3 g/hour.

It’s important to note that these data have some serious limitations. A major one is the variance of the methods used to determine the absorption rates (i.e., intravenous infusion, oral ingestion, ileal ingestion). Most of the methods are just too crude or far-fetched for serious consideration. Another limitation is that these figures could be skewed depending upon their concentration in solution, which can affect their rate of gastric evacuation. Another factor to consider is the timing of ingestion relative to exercise and how that might differentially affect absorption rates. Finally, short-term data leaves a lot open to question.

Short-term research supporting the magic limit

I’ve heard many folks parrot that the maximal anabolic effect of a single protein dose is limited to 20 grams, citing recent work by Moore and colleagues [7]. In this study’s 4-hour post-exercise test period, 40 g protein did not elicit a greater anabolic response than 20 g. I’d interpret these outcomes with caution. Fundamentally speaking, protein utilization can differ according to muscle mass. The requirements of a 140-lb person will differ markedly from someone who’s a lean 200. Additionally, a relatively low amount of total volume was used (12 sets total). Typical training bouts usually involve more than one muscle group and are commonly at least double that volume, which can potentially increase the demand for nutrient uptake. Finally, the conclusion of the authors is questionable. They state explicitly,

“…we speculate that no more than 5-6 times daily could one ingest this amount (~20 g) of protein and expect muscle protein synthesis to be maximally stimulated.”

So, they’re implying that 100-120 grams of protein per day is maximal for promoting muscle growth. Wait a minute, what? Based on both the bulk of the research evidence and numerous field observations, this is simply false [8,9].

In another recent study, Symons and colleagues compared the 5-hour response of a moderate serving of lean beef containing 30 g protein with a large serving containing 90 g protein [10]. The smaller serving increased protein synthesis by approximately 50%, and the larger serving caused no further increase in protein synthesis, despite being triple the dose. The researchers concluded that the ingestion of more than 30 g protein in a single meal does not further enhance muscle protein synthesis. While their conclusion indeed supports the outcomes of their short-term study, it’s pretty easy to predict the outcomes in muscle size and strength if we compared a total daily protein dose of 90 g with 30 g over a longer trial period, let alone one involving a structured exercise protocol. This brings me to the crucial point that acute outcomes merely provide grounds for hypothesis. It’s not completely meaningless, but it’s far from conclusive without examining the long-term effects.

Longer-term research challenging the magic limit

If we were to believe the premise that a 20-30 g dose of protein yields a maximal anabolic effect, then it follows that any excess beyond this dose would be wasted. On the contrary, the body is smarter than that. In a 14-day trial, Arnal and colleagues found no difference in fat-free mass or nitrogen retention between consuming 79% of the day’s protein needs (roughly 54 g) in one meal, versus the same amount spread across four meals [11].

Notably, this study was done on young female adults whose fat-free mass averaged 40.8 kg (89.8 lb). Considering that most non-sedentary males have considerably more lean mass than the female subjects used in the aforementioned trial, it’s plausible that much more than 54 g protein in a single meal can be efficiently processed for anabolic and/or anti-catabolic purposes. If we extrapolated the protein dose used in this study (79% of 1.67g/kg) to the average adult male, it would be roughly 85-95 g or even more, depending on just how close someone is to the end of the upper limits of muscular size.

When Arnal and colleagues applied the same protocol to the elderly population, the single-dose treatment actually caused better muscle protein retention than the multiple-dose treatment [12]. This raises the possibility that as we age, larger protein feedings might be necessary to achieve the same effect on protein retention as lesser amounts in our youth.

IF research nailing the coffin shut?

Perhaps the strongest case against the idea of a dosing limit beyond which anabolism or muscle retention can occur is the recent intermittent fasting (IF) research, particularly the trials with a control group on a conventional diet. For example, Soeters and colleagues compared two weeks of IF involving 20-hour fasting cycles with a conventional diet [13]. Despite the IF group’s consumption of an average of 101 g protein in a 4-hour window, there was no difference in preservation of lean mass and muscle protein between groups.
In another example, Stote and colleagues actually reported an improvement in body composition (including an increase in lean mass) after 8 weeks in the IF group consuming one meal per day, where roughly 86 g protein was ingested in a 4-hour window [14]. Interestingly, the conventional group consuming three meals spread throughout the day showed no significant body composition improvements.

Keep in mind that bioelectrical impedance (BIA) was used to determine body composition, so these outcomes should be viewed with caution. I’ve been highly critical of this study in the past, and I still am. Nevertheless, it cannot be completely written off and must be factored into the body of evidence against the idea of a magic protein dose limit.

Conclusion & application

Based on the available evidence, it’s false to assume that the body can only use a certain amount of protein per meal. Studies examining short-term effects have provided hints towards what might be an optimal protein dose for maximizing anabolism, but trials drawn out over longer periods haven’t supported this idea. So, is there a limit to how much protein per meal can be effectively used? Yes there is, but this limit is likely similar to the amount that’s maximally effective in an entire day. What’s the most protein that the body can effectively use in an entire day? The short answer is, a lot more than 20-30 g. The long answer is, it depends on several factors. In most cases it’s not too far from a gram per pound in drug-free trainees, given that adequate total calories are provided [8,9].

In terms of application, I’ve consistently observed the effectiveness of having approximately a quarter of your target bodyweight in both the pre- and post-exercise meal. Note: target bodyweight is a surrogate index of lean mass, and I use that to avoid making skewed calculations in cases where individuals are markedly over- or underweight. This dose surpasses the amounts seen to cause a maximal anabolic response but doesn’t impinge upon the rest of the day’s protein allotment, which can be distributed as desired. On days off from training, combine or split up your total protein allotment according to your personal preference and digestive tolerance. I realize that freedom and flexibility are uncommon terms in physique culture, but maybe it’s time for a paradigm shift.

In sum, view all information – especially gym folklore and short-term research – with caution. Don’t buy into the myth that protein won’t get used efficiently unless it’s dosed sparingly throughout the day. Hopefully, future research will definitively answer how different dosing schemes with various protein types affect relevant endpoints such as size and strength.
 
Thanks for posting that stuff Max.

I will read through it all a bit later tonight..
 
Thanks for posting that stuff Max.

I will read through it all a bit later tonight..
No problem at all mate :)

Please have a read and also check out these websites -

bodycomposition.com
alanaragon.com
leangains.com

It will de-bunk many of the common mis-conceptions and will open you up to a much better understanding of everything nutritional, hormonal, body composition and training etc. Enjoy!
 
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