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Volume

High Road

New member
Just read 0ni's post in the Sheiko thread and it reminded me of this article. It's weightlifting/Crossfit based but the general message regarding volume is still there.

Thoughts?


"I finished up another one of Medvedyev’s training manuals last week and was reviewing my notes and thoughts on the manual this week. The training manual I read is titled “A System of Multi-Year Training in Weightlifting.” Much of what I gained personally was a better understanding of the necessity for GPP and athletic work at an early age in order to produce elite lifters later in life. While I knew and saw the necessity for basic athletic ability in the sport of weightlifting, this manual helped to draw out when and how to train young athletes. The manual gave me a little insight into how great a percentage of an athlete’s training should be General Physical Preparation and at what ages should that percentage shift. Furthermore, this manual listed some of the better ways to train young athletes in their athletic ability throughout their training lifetime even giving me specific exercises to add to their programming.
Also one of the more intriguing elements that compiled this manual was how Medvedyev arranged the volume of elite level weightlifters as compared to lifters who are very young in the sport. He detailed percentages, tonnage lifted, and number of lifts (NL) per age group or skill level in order to achieve optimal results. These charts and parameters have proved invaluable in programming and coaching athletes in the lifts. Furthermore, Medvedyev gave me a template to manipulate and arrange for the purpose of Crossfit programming. In 1986 when Medvedyev wrote this manual Crossfit didn’t exist. However, much of the theory behind his parameters for yearly loading can be applied to loading and training Crossfit athletes. If you follow the Outlaw Way, you are currently loaded seasonally according to these principles. I bet ole Medvedyev is rolling in his grave thinking his Russian weightlifting protocols are making Crossfitters more fit.
Lastly, and probably the most affirming part of the book came at the end. The majority of the manual was straight science, charts, and physics. However, near the end Medvedyev gave us a little insight into the passion and dedication he gave to the sport of weightlifting and his programming philosophies. I posted this quote on Outlaw Barbell a while ago but it’s worth repeating so you can get a little insight into why the Russians program the way they do.
“The volume of loading has grown noticeably, in recent years. However, it is impossible to agree with the viewpoint that an increase in the volume of training work is considered the sole or at best, the most accessible opportunity for raising the effectiveness of the athlete’s preparation. In contrast to the volume, the rational structuring of the loading is of great significance, in any type of sport. Practical experience has shown that no one means, nor one method of special training can be considered universal or absolutely effective. Every means and method can (and should) have chief significance at a given stage of training; depending on the motor specifics of the type of sport, the sportman’s preparedness, character of the preceding loading, the concrete objectives of the current stage of training, etc. Furthermore, our research (Y.V. Verkhoshansky, 1966, 1970) has shown convincingly, that if one is speaking of the absolute effect of special-strength-training, i.e., a definite system of employing a variety of means and methods, this effect is significantly higher qualitatively and quantitatively, than is achieved with separate means and methods, not sequence over time. Furthermore, this effect is achieved at a lesser volume of loading…The fact is that it is simpler and easier to increase the volume of loading, than to search for effective means of special training. That is why this method is so commonly used in practice.[1]
Medvedyev makes a giant point here. When done in a chaotic fashion and when done without specific goals and loading in mind is futile. Furthermore, just because you do more does not necessarily mean that you are getting better. He makes the point that it is easy to just add more volume to a program. That takes no science, research, or critical thinking skills. Just add more reps and more sets. The idea that you can just “out-work” your competition and be a better athlete by simply doing more than your opponents is a fallacy plaguing the Olympic lifting and Crossfit world. Even in a system like Crossfit where randomness and chaos is the whole idea, there has to be structure. Medvedyev notes that while this is true, it’s also hard. It’s always easier to just add more volume but it’s not always best." - Spencer Arnold
 
Yeah it's on the ball. For the first 6 years of training on average anyway
If you look at the elite lifters logs that Sheiko managed they started to ramp the weight up a lot and started waving volume with intensity in 4 week blocks. This is what Clint Darden recommends as well and you'll notice a few routines will wave volume with intensity somehow. Most people will never get to this point though, especially if they have never done volume training despite training age
 
Yeah it's on the ball. For the first 6 years of training on average anyway
If you look at the elite lifters logs that Sheiko managed they started to ramp the weight up a lot and started waving volume with intensity in 4 week blocks. This is what Clint Darden recommends as well and you'll notice a few routines will wave volume with intensity somehow. Most people will never get to this point though, especially if they have never done volume training despite training age


That boy is on the Jiuce
 
The fact is that it is simpler and easier to increase the volume of loading, than to search for effective means of special training. That is why this method is so commonly used in practice.[1]

It's nice that you think Medvedyev was on the ball...I'm just going to post this bit again for you 0ni which was the main point I was getting at with this article.
 
I never understood Oni to mean that volume just increases and that's the only factor.

Even the "arrester" (beginner/intermediate) templates Sheiko created use a 4 week wave loading of volume/intensity. This is what drives the improvements month by month. As the lifter advances, volume (no of lifts per month) has to increase to ensure improvements can continue over long periods (ie year by year), but the basic 4 week wave remains. As volume increase, you get to the point where you need to increase frequency to effectively fit in and recover from that many lifts.

Once the lifters hit the elite level, it becomes impossible to add any more volume, as there is simply no more time (a point Mike T talks about). What Sheiko does here if you look at the programs for his World Champion lifters, is much less specificity and more weakness training compared to beginner programs, eg partials, accomodating resistance, more upper back training etc. I think that's because a Fedorenko needs very little skill practice anymore, so he can focus training energy on training weak spots.
 
I wasn't just talking about Sheiko here (Sheiko is a program with proven results that uses volume), I was more referring to what 0ni said in the Sheiko thread, which reminded me of this article, which lead me to the question...do you think coaches/trainers etc just throw volume at the client/athlete rather than working out special training?Example
Me "I'm not fit enough"
Coach "that's because you don't do enough"
Me "ok, I'll do two sessions a day".
What I'm asking here is do you think this is the best response? Volume will get results, no doubt, but is it always the best answer?
 
I wasn't just talking about Sheiko here (Sheiko is a program with proven results that uses volume), I was more referring to what 0ni said in the Sheiko thread, which reminded me of this article, which lead me to the question...do you think coaches/trainers etc just throw volume at the client/athlete rather than working out special training?Example
Me "I'm not fit enough"
Coach "that's because you don't do enough"
Me "ok, I'll do two sessions a day".
What I'm asking here is do you think this is the best response? Volume will get results, no doubt, but is it always the best answer?

What SE is saying is pretty much exactly how I feel really.
Increasing your volume is nearly always the easiest and best thing to do until you're hitting around a 450 wilks lets say... I used to think 400 wilks on this but I recently hit this myself and I honestly get good results from just doing more still. First 6 years of training really all you need to do is increase volume and you'll see results unless you progress very fast. Zach Turner for example... went from 160kg squat to 310kg in his second year of training... probably will hit the wall with volume a lot sooner just because he progressed so fast

You will work out and figure out what exercises and rep ranges etc work best for you in these 6 years, you don't need to worry about it honestly. Just keep training harder and eating more... you'll know what to do when you hit the wall and can't increase volume much more. If you're not fit enough I don't think 2 a days is the answer really. Jumping up volume fast is pretty silly really you only need to increase it slowly and gradually over many years. If you're fucked at the end of a training session then just keep doing it until you're not fucked then do a little more
 
Arrh 0ni, you do my head in sometimes.

Your looking at this in one dimension. Maybe I posted this in the wrong section.


My example was just an example..
 
Well I'm not really understanding what you're saying then
What is the issue? Do you increase volume or do you focus on special exercises?
Well you're a weightlifter and 80kg 5'11. So what is your best snatch 160kg? Less? Then you need to increase your volume and eat plenty of meat honestly focusing on good technique and using exercises that focus on grooving the areas where your technique breaks down. So if you're not getting the rebend correct with the right angles then you snatch starting from just below the knees and do a few reps getting to the nibble and then a last full rep etc... you know your own training I'm sure. But plenty of volume and always increasing until you're very good at that position then you focus on the next thing that can be improved etc
 
Yes I read the article but you offered nothing more than "what are your thoughts"
What the fuck does this even mean? What are my thoughts???? Do I think that statement is correct? Yes I think it is correct like I said a million times increasing volume is as easy as doing another set. Can you do another set yes of course you can do one more set. Then next month you add an extra last warm-up set and you don't even notice but the volume is increased and you're getting more practice. It's effortless and you don't notice it as long as you're intelligent and don't go nuts
 
Are you sure you read the article? You support the article, and agree with it, yet then go on talking about how good volume is.

"Furthermore, just because you do more does not necessarily mean that you are getting better. He makes the point that it is easy to just add more volume to a program. That takes no science, research, or critical thinking skills. Just add more reps and more sets."


Maybe you did read the article....did you understand it?
 
0ni

Could you please put your searching skills into real good use and find the name of that girl in the GIFS thread, please!
 
Are you sure you read the article? You support the article, and agree with it, yet then go on talking about how good volume is.

"Furthermore, just because you do more does not necessarily mean that you are getting better. He makes the point that it is easy to just add more volume to a program. That takes no science, research, or critical thinking skills. Just add more reps and more sets."


Maybe you did read the article....did you understand it?

I HAVE ALREADY SAID THAT FOR THE FIRST 6 YEARS OF TRAINING IT WILL, IT ALWAYS WILL ALWAYS HAS FOR FIRST 6 YEARS OF TRAINING OR UNTIL INTERNATIONAL LEVEL COMPETITOR, REAL INTERNATIONAL NOT GPC INTERNATIONAL BALONIE

He is correct in what he is saying, but it does not apply until advanced lifter. I have explained this and I don't know how to explain it better at all. Just increase your volume and you will get stronger and bigger and stay lean eating your face off as long as you start less than 10%. When it stops working you will probably be tired so lower volume and work up again. You will KNOW when increasing volume won't work. Then you ramp up intensity instead and BOOM loads of very fast progress
 
I fail to see why people are even arguing this as there are no 'international level' athletes here.

Just fucken lift.
 
One could argue what an international lifter requires and what we require differs by degree, not by kind.

Prescribing volume is a pretty broad and general prescription.
Problem - my squat is stalling
Solution - squat more
 
One could argue what an international lifter requires and what we require differs by degree, not by kind.

Prescribing volume is a pretty broad and general prescription.
Problem - my squat is stalling
Solution - squat more


Have you considered; "less is more"?
Have you tried Less "volume"?
 
I'm not saying that volume is never the answer, just not always the answer.

Here is another extract that I think is relevant


"Every means and method can (and should) have chief significance at a given stage of training"
 
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