body proportions and hitting squat depth

[Zoot]

Everybody has a different ratio of torso length to femur length. The proposition that I'm putting forth here is that for some people, that ratio impedes their ability to hit a legal squat depth and a further subset may never be able to make a legal squat at all.

This first diagram shows a long torso, short femur lifter:



With the weight of the bar acting through the heels this lifter enjoys

• a relatively upright torso angle, minimising the torque on the lower back
• Benign angles at the knee and ankle joints

The opposite body type is a short torso, long femur lifter(obviously exaggerated for emphasis in this diagram):



If this guy tries to get away with a similar torso position and the same ankle and knee angles as the previous guy, he's going to tip backwards. The weight acts on a point somewhere behind the heel and there is no way he can avoid pivoting about the heel and falling backwards.

The lifter will instinctively adjust body angles to prevent tipping backwards. What he's doing of course is moving that bar forward so that it is once again acting through the heels

The short-torso/long-femur lifter doesn't have many options. He will do something like this:



Which is bad in so many ways

• Torso leaning forward introduces a "good-morning" element to the lift, and puts stress on the lower back
• Likelihood of losing back arch
• Extreme angles at knee and ankle joints, reducing their working life
• Can't make depth, as the knee is always lower than the hip joint

And here's a video that shows what it looks like in action.

Squat 2013-03-25 - YouTube

We can see that the need to maintain balance still thrusts the shins so far forward that the knees are much lower than the hip joint. This comes from physics, not flexibility, and not core/hammy/glute/lower back weakness. The physics of maintaining balance means that this guy will never be able to get his hip crease lower than his knees, and will hence never be able to perform a squat that a judge would pass. .

My proposition is:

The only hope for such a person is to alter the femur:torso ratio. Short of surgery, he must dramatically widen his stance. In effect, this will shorten the femur, improving his ratio to something more like the long-torso:short-femur lifter.

 

[Goosey]

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here zoot.

Determining torso length does not have anything to do with depth.
You get your dead arse under the bar and lift.
All it tells you is that some have an advantage over others, it simple leverages is all.

 

[strong enough?]

Disagree 100% with the OP.

Forget about levers. It's just an excuse.

Every person will have their own ideal squat position. For some, it will be a narrow stance, knees forward. For others it will be wide stance, shins vertical. Then there's everything in between.

With a narrow-medium stance, some angle on the shins is inevitable, particulaly if squatting high bar. This isn't a bad thing. It just means it will be a more quad dominant movement.

Forward lean isn't bad either. Forward lean increases the required torque at the hips, and arguably creates more sheer force for the lower back, but it doesn't necessarily prevent you from hitting depth, nor does it mean you will GM the weight up. GM'ing the weight up is simply a result of not extending the hips through the movement or your chest dropping.

The vertical shin idea is a notion that has come from Westside. It doesn't necessarily translate to narrow-medium stance squatting.

Yes some people are built more ideally for squatting but you can't let this become an excuse for not getting stronger.

The best powerlifter in the history of the universe, Ed Coan, squatted with a forward lean.

The best total by an Australian powerlifter, by formula, was done by Adam Coe. If you have a look at him squatting, he doesn't have levers which I would describe as being that of an ideal squatter, but he got the job done.

Levers don't prevent a person reaching squat depth.

Technique, strength and mobility do.

The main reason the person in the video can't hit depth and is in a bad position is because (a) he isn't pushing their knees out enough; and (b) he isn't actively using his hips, but rather is performing a standing leg press. Heels would help too.

 

[Bazza20]

Sure certain body shapes benefit some lifts over other. You can't do fuck all about it so just forget about it and put the effort into lifting.

 

[Brick]

Anyone can hit depth, it's not cause of your levers that your squatting high its cause you have too much weight on the bar.

Can you squat to depth with only the bar, 60kg on the bar???

 

[strong enough?]

Brick, funnily enough, I think that it's actually easier to hit depth with weight on the bar than 60kg. More weight will stretch the squatting muscles out more in the bottom position. Light weights also play with your balance and don't allow you to sit back as much. People cut depth with heavier weights because they are actually cutting depth, whether out of fear or because they're not strong enough, not because its physically harder to hit depth.

 

[Goosey]

Although, if you do decide to lift competitively it will be a factor.

 

[Brick]

People cut depth with heavier weights because they are actually cutting depth, whether out of fear or because they're not strong enough, not because its physically harder to hit depth.

Thats what I was getting at. Ego gets in the way of depth, load the bar with more then you can handle squat high and claim shitty levers.

You see alot of guys as they add weight to the bar the squat slowly creeps up. But I do get what you mean about weight helping you get buried.

Dunno could be different for me, I'm a bit of a dive bomber and tend to try and bounce out of the hole so use a little extra depth to my advantage.

 

[Bench Polkov]

Lots of different people with different levers hit depth. You just need to find the technique that works for you.

Levers are not an excuse for being a pussy.

 

[Zoot]

Anyone can hit depth, it's not cause of your levers that your squatting high its cause you have too much weight on the bar.

Can you squat to depth with only the bar, 60kg on the bar???

No. 60kg or 180kg, I bottom out at the same point.

 

[Bench Polkov]

No. 60kg or 180kg, I bottom out at the same point.

Change your stance, get more flexible.

 

[Zoot]

Change your stance

Agreed. To what?

 

[IRON TANKS]

There is some merit to levers and proportions (yes some people have a bio mechanical "advantage"), but they're the cards you've been dealt. Working with flexibility is a big one in particular, as well as stance.

 

[canned tuna]

I think the overall point you're making is that people with comparitively long legs are 'more inclined' to require a wider stance in order to get as low as people who have shorter legs, while managing their back arch effectively

My limited experience supports that statement. I'm a beginner, so it doesn't carry much weight though.

I have long legs and have noticed that the more wide my stance, the less pressure goes onto my lower back when getting down low, and vice versa

Perhaps people with more experience have more valid opinions which could conflict with my findings, but that's what I notice. I do low-bar

 

[Bench Polkov]

Agreed. To what?

Show me vids from front, back and side.

 

[Zoot]

There is some merit to levers and proportions (yes some people have a bio mechanical "advantage"), but they're the cards you've been dealt. Working with flexibility is a big one in particular, as well as stance.

Minchia, thanks for your considered response.

I am neither young nor flexible, and I live a long way from easy access to expert help. I don't get excited about lifting for size or aesthetics; I do get a thrill out of lifting to compete so I need to figure out a way to hit depth.

By "change stance" do you mean "go wider"?

If so, then I am going to have major flexibility issues. Adductors, obviously, but also something that rounds the lower back over toward the bottom. I can research this stuff and rebuild my squat over time, but any suggestions you might have would probably be valuable

 

[Zoot]

Show me vids from front, back and side.

I'll get some. A side video is in the OP.

 

[Zoot]

I think the overall point you're making is that people with comparitively long legs are 'more inclined' to require a wider stance in order to get as low as people who have shorter legs, while managing their back arch effectively

My limited experience supports that statement. I'm a beginner, so it doesn't carry much weight though.

I have long legs and have noticed that the more wide my stance, the less pressure goes onto my lower back when getting down low, and vice versa

Perhaps people with more experience have more valid opinions which could conflict with my findings, but that's what I notice. I do low-bar

You're right, that's exactly my point. It's about the ratio of body parts, not the length of any one body part. You can't argue with the physics (actually, evidently you can argue with the physics, but that doesn't make the physics go away)

I reckon I too need to go wider (or squat high bar, which would effectively lengthen the lever arm formed by my torso)

Your findings make perfect sense: By squatting wider, you're effectively shortening the lever formed by the femur, so you enjoy more of the advantages of the guy in the 1st diagram of the OP.

 

[strong enough?]

Zoot, for starters, based on the vid you already posted, you need to push your knees out more. Your hips have nowhere to move at the bottom of the squat. If you sit between your legs more, you will find it easier to hit depth without your back rounding. Slightly wider will also help.

 

[Bench Polkov]

Spread the feet and knees more to create a hole to sit into. Sitting back is obviously not working for you, you need to squat down not back.