4 Day Split: need advice

[dalemightypies]

Hey guys, if you've read my other topics, i've been cutting for 23 or so weeks and am nearly at the stage where i want to start bulking again and putting on some serious size.

I'm trying to get my diet and training down pat..
(DIET THREAD: http://ausbb.com/nutrition-diet/13620-clean-ish-bulk.html)

I want to train 4 days per week, sunday, monday, wednesday, thursday.

I like the following split, i find its a good balance and not too much for one workout, allows me to smash the shit out of each bodypart without already being pre exhausted from previous body parts.

What i really need help with is the training volume and exercises per bodypart, sets/reps etc.. Here is an idea of what i want to do, but i really want as much as advice as possible to improve it and have it all balanced out.

Chest/Triceps
Incline Bench 3x8
Flat Bench 3x8
Dips 3x8
Pec Flies 3x8
------------------
Close Grip Bench 3x8
Skull Crushers 3x8
Tricep Pushdowns 3x8



Back/Abs
Deadlifts 3x8
Barbell Row 3x8
Seated Row 3x8
Wide Grip Pulldown 3x8
Chinup 3x8
------------------
Abs



Quads/Hammies/Calves
Squats 3x8
Lunges 3x8
Leg Press 3x8
Leg Extensions 3x8
Leg Curls 3x8
------------------
Standing Calve Raises 3x50
Seated Calve Raises 3x50



Shoulders/Biceps
Seated Dumbbell Press 3x8
Lying Lateral Raises 3x8
Front Raises 3x8
Side Raises 3x8
Shrugs 3x8
-------------
Incline Hammer Curl 3x8
Standing Barbell Curl 3x8
Cable Curl 3x8

 

[Oli]

Wow you actually know your stuff, welcome to the forum.

I like the split design but I'd really cut back on the volume. You only need 3-4 exercises for major muscle groups (legs, chest, back) and 1-2 for smaller ones (shoulders, arms). I'd probably move your tricep work over to shoulder day to make it a shoulders/arms day.

Base each session around the squat, bench, deadlift and overhead press. Really push those. Something like this:

Legs
4x10 Squats
3x10 Leg press
3x10 Leg curls

Chest
4x10 Bench press
3x10 Inclines
3x10 Dips OR flyes

Back
4x10 Deadlifts
3xfailure Pull ups
3x10 Bent rows

Shoulders
4x10 Overhead press
3x10 Side laterals
3x10 Skullcrushers
3x10 Barbell curls

If you can't squat 140, bench 100 or deadlift 180 consider one of the beginner programs, you'd be suprised at how much hypertrophy you'll get with a tight diet.

 

[Shrek]

The split looks ok. Agree with Oliver too, don't be afraid to try full body workouts based around compounds. With good diet you will pack on mass.

Try 3 days per week full body and 1 day ancillary work for arms and calves and maybe some abs or work on lagging bodyparts

 

[leachy]

Ditto what Oli said. Focus on the 3 big lifts, then do the bodybuilding/accessory/shaping work after.

 

[dalemightypies]

Wow you actually know your stuff, welcome to the forum.

I like the split design but I'd really cut back on the volume. You only need 3-4 exercises for major muscle groups (legs, chest, back) and 1-2 for smaller ones (shoulders, arms). I'd probably move your tricep work over to shoulder day to make it a shoulders/arms day.

Base each session around the squat, bench, deadlift and overhead press. Really push those. Something like this:

Legs
4x10 Squats
3x10 Leg press
3x10 Leg curls

Chest
4x10 Bench press
3x10 Inclines
3x10 Dips OR flyes

Back
4x10 Deadlifts
3xfailure Pull ups
3x10 Bent rows

Shoulders
4x10 Overhead press
3x10 Side laterals
3x10 Skullcrushers
3x10 Barbell curls

If you can't squat 140, bench 100 or deadlift 180 consider one of the beginner programs, you'd be suprised at how much hypertrophy you'll get with a tight diet.

Thanks for the reply mate really appreciate it.

My 1rm squat is 128, deadlift 170, bench 95kg ... i know for sure i will smash these in the next 9 months though.

The split looks ok. Agree with Oliver too, don't be afraid to try full body workouts based around compounds. With good diet you will pack on mass.

Try 3 days per week full body and 1 day ancillary work for arms and calves and maybe some abs or work on lagging bodyparts

thanks for the reply mate, i'll take that into account

Ditto what Oli said. Focus on the 3 big lifts, then do the bodybuilding/accessory/shaping work after.

cheers mate, chest day my first exercise is flat bench which will be my main focus, back day deadlift will be my biggest focus and leg day squats will be.

I've done full body routines with just compound and then isolation work at the end or on seperate days, while i got good results from that i've found i respond more to a true bodybuilding split.

Thanks for the advice everyone much appreciated!

 

[leachy]

Its good you actually listen to your body and have figured out what works for you. Theirs no way I can handle pressing 3 times a week, so I do it twice.

 

[Oli]

You know you'd probably be ready for something like PPP (pm markos about it) or 5/3/1 if you wanted to try those. they work very well.

 

[dalemightypies]

Cut the volume down a bit..

Chest/Triceps
Flat Bench 4x8
Incline Bench 3x8
Dips 3x8
------------------
Skull Crushers 3x8
Tricep Pushdowns 3x8



Back/Abs
Deadlifts 4x8
Barbell Row 3x8
Chinup 3x8
Wide Grip Pulldown 3x8
------------------
Abs



Quads/Hammies/Calves
Squats 4x8
Leg Press 3x8
Leg Extensions 3x8
------------------
Lunges 3x8
Leg Curls 3x8
------------------
Standing Calve Raises 3x50
Seated Calve Raises 3x50



Shoulders/Biceps
Seated Dumbbell Press 3x8
Lying Lateral Raises 3x8
Front Raises 3x8
-------------
Incline Hammer Curl 3x8
Standing Barbell Curl 3x8

 

[And the Ugly]

I like your exercise choices and split, but can't see you maintaining intensity through sessions of that length. I'd stop at 5 - 6 exercises per workout if you're training with intensity. Eg. day 1 i'd drop an exercise from both chest and tri's. Then rotate the dropped exercises so they get done every second week.
If you're training chest properly you won't be able to complete three tricep exercises effectively afterwards.
This kind of split / exercise choice / volume setup is as old as they come and works well for the vast majority of people.

Edit:

Your second, edited plan is spot on.

 

[dalemightypies]

Its good you actually listen to your body and have figured out what works for you. Theirs no way I can handle pressing 3 times a week, so I do it twice.

i find my body is pretty slow with recovery, even when im getting a lot of food in and a lot of rest, don't think i could handle benching more than twice a week i reckon i'd wear myself out.

You know you'd probably be ready for something like PPP (pm markos about it) or 5/3/1 if you wanted to try those. they work very well.

Sounds interesting mate, whats it based around?

 

[dalemightypies]

I like your exercise choices and split, but can't see you maintaining intensity through sessions of that length. I'd stop at 5 - 6 exercises per workout if you're training with intensity. Eg. day 1 i'd drop an exercise from both chest and tri's. Then rotate the dropped exercises so they get done every second week.
If you're training chest properly you won't be able to complete three tricep exercises effectively afterwards.
This kind of split / exercise choice / volume setup is as old as they come and works well for the vast majority of people.

Cheers for the reply mate, check out the revised split i posted up, dropped some exercises

 

[Oli]

Sounds interesting mate, whats it based around?

Basically the squat, bench and deadlift (and overhead press in 5/3/1) but they give you options for assistance work so you can tailor it to how you want - eg getting more volume.

Markos' program starts off with higher reps before moving into singles over a number of weeks where you set a new PR whereas wendler's is straight up periodisation. These things are useful as it stops you having to regulate things yourself to avoid overtraining and keep progressing, which even for an experienced lifter is very hard.

I'm 2 weeks off a 200kg squat on PPP (I'm more strength focused, but if you eat you'll get big too) and am 20. Theres a lot of success stories for 5/3/1 on bb.com as well. I'd really recommend either one.

 

[dalemightypies]

Basically the squat, bench and deadlift (and overhead press in 5/3/1) but they give you options for assistance work so you can tailor it to how you want - eg getting more volume.

Markos' program starts off with higher reps before moving into singles over a number of weeks where you set a new PR whereas wendler's is straight up periodisation. These things are useful as it stops you having to regulate things yourself to avoid overtraining and keep progressing, which even for an experienced lifter is very hard.

I'm 2 weeks off a 200kg squat on PPP (I'm more strength focused, but if you eat you'll get big too) and am 20. Theres a lot of success stories for 5/3/1 on bb.com as well. I'd really recommend either one.

thanks mate i'll look into it

for now i think i'll stick to a pure bodybuilding routine, and if i feel like i'm plateauing i might give this a crack for something different. thanks heaps mate

 

[leachy]

Theres no such thing as a pure bodybuilding routine. ALL the greats always lifted heavy, and still do. As Ronnie puts it "everyone wants to be big, but no one wants to lift no heavy ass weight."

 

[Oli]

Theres no such thing as a pure bodybuilding routine. ALL the greats always lifted heavy, and still do. As Ronnie puts it "everyone wants to be big, but no one wants to lift no heavy ass weight."

We'll avoid this debate but pretty much. I think organised stuff like PPP and 5/3/1 generally work for more people than conventional bodybuilding routines, the trick is to make them your own.

 

[leachy]

We'll avoid this debate but pretty much. I think organised stuff like PPP and 5/3/1 generally work for more people than conventional bodybuilding routines, the trick is to make them your own.

Yeah I know its been done to death. I use PPP just so that I know exactly what I have to lift each and every workout, and can gauge my progression easily.

But at 70kg with a goal of mass building a strength based routine is key.

 

[dalemightypies]

Theres no such thing as a pure bodybuilding routine. ALL the greats always lifted heavy, and still do. As Ronnie puts it "everyone wants to be big, but no one wants to lift no heavy ass weight."

Fair enough mate, but did ronnie go in and do 3 compounds and walk out? i'm sure he would of done a lot of isolation work as well as lifting heavy.

Fair point though i agree to an extent

We'll avoid this debate but pretty much. I think organised stuff like PPP and 5/3/1 generally work for more people than conventional bodybuilding routines, the trick is to make them your own.

Fair enough mate i cant argue with that at all.

I think doing a combination of focusing on compounds + some isolation work is the way to go for me

 

[Bench Polkov]

You can run 5/3/1 easily with bodybuilding assistance work quite easily.

Squats=leg day
Bench=chest day
Deads=back day
Military=shoulder day

You run your 3 working sets of your main lifts first then continue on with the rest of your workout.

Eg.
Squats (in week 3)
1 x 5 @75%
1 x 3 @85%
1 x +1 @95%

More squats
3 x 8

Leg Press
3 x 8

Leg Curls
3 x 8

Standing Calve Raises
3 x 50

I removed a couple of exercises because you still had a ridiculous amount of exercises on leg day, that and leg extensions are a steaming pile of shit in my opinion.

Comprende?

 

[Bazza20]

Sorry if I've missed it but first what do you squat, dead, bench, and overhead press. Also weight and height.

 

[Christian]

Fair enough mate, but did ronnie go in and do 3 compounds and walk out? i'm sure he would of done a lot of isolation work as well as lifting heavy.

Fair point though i agree to an extent




Fair enough mate i cant argue with that at all.

I think doing a combination of focusing on compounds + some isolation work is the way to go for me

Yes but your not Ronnie..

Basic strength first then do whatever you want if you can't pull 200kg for a few reps your going to be a shot bodybuilder..

All good bodybuilders are strong, moat tryhard body builders Arnt. I'm not saying that's what you are.. But just go to any gym and take a look around at 50kg guys who bench the bar working on their rotator cuffs because someone else did it.