Crap deadlift, good opportunity to point and laugh

[Zoot]

My deadlift is crap. I'd really like to do something about it, but I really struggle with form. I'm miles from any regular critiquing, so it's not really getting better.

Here's a current attempt, when somewhat fatigued, at about 75%:

Crappy 140kg Triple - YouTube

It doesn't look too good, even to me - hips rising, chest doesn't seem to be up. But I just can't seem to correct that stuff through an effort of will. I dunno whether I've trained the muscles to fire in the wrong order, whether there's a fundamental back/hips/glutes/hammy weakness somewhere that causes other systems to compensate, whether my body propertions mean that I'm doomed to be crap at deadlifts...



Feel free to point and laugh. Any serious observations/advice will be gratefully received.

 

[Sam]

I think it doesn't look too bad. If your hips tend to rise first, maybe try starting the lift with them a bit higher. You definitely want them lower than your shoulders, which they still would be if you set them at the point that they currently rise to before you start the lift.

 

[Neddysmith]

I am by no means an expert but it didn't look too bad from my point of view, yes you could have kept th chest up slightly and yes your are did rise first then the back movement, but I think if you are able to correct th chest the are will follow or visa versa.

 

[Goosey]

Just think about moving as one, actually don't over-think it.

What I did spot were your heels are lifting
With this exercise should be pushing the floor away from the bar rather than thinking you need to lift it, give that a crack.

 

[Darkoz]

I can see zoot's crack

 

[0ni]

You have no hamstrings and a massive ass
Probably would help to build up the hammies a bit

 

[Darkoz]

You have such a way with words Oni, you fucken charmer you.

 

[Zoot]

Just think about moving as one, actually don't over-think it.

What I did spot were your heels are lifting
With this exercise should be pushing the floor away from the bar rather than thinking you need to lift it, give that a crack.

One of the things I see is that my knees are way forward over my feet, so the shins are angling forward. Is this normal? To me it looks inevitable that the first part of the pull must take the bar away from the body as it tracks up the shin, at least until the shin angle reaches vertical.

Maybe this explains why I feel like I can't pull "up and back" - I'd be trying to pull it through my shin. Hence my ass instinctively rises because this gets the shin back to a vertical position and I can pull vertically.

Which gets us back to Sam's point: if I start with my ass higher (which sounded counter-intuitive at first) then the shins might be more vertical to start with, and I can maybe lean back a bit more and drive thru the heels, as you suggest.

 

[Zoot]

I can see zoot's crack

You have no hamstrings and a massive ass
Probably would help to build up the hammies a bit

There seems to be some consensus on this point.

Next time I'm wearing my bike pants. The tight, slightly threadbare ones.
There will be arse.
And crack.
I may even do that thing with the walnuts.

 

[0ni]

ok
if you start with the bar closer to you (which will increase the load on the hamstrings which is partly why you need to strengthen them so you can get into a better position) then when your scapulae are over the bar your hips will be in a similar start position (which is about right) yet your shins will start much more vertical. Take a look at this video but bear in mind that he is an equipped lifter so as a raw guy you'll start with the bar a little father away from your shins

Deadlifts and Sitting Back - YouTube

 

[Zoot]

OK, so after practicing in the bathroom with no weight, there were two things I set out to change today:

(i) Getting the shins more vertical. At this early stage I still need to eyeball my shins on each rep, but this one cue is just magic. It forces me to sit back (as per 0ni's vid) and the weight automatically transfers to my heels. My starting position is now much closer to the bar - it has to be. My bum wants to start off higher and I'm still trying to control this, but even so, the whole arse-popping-up thing is much reduced.

(ii) Getting the force-production from the hammies and glutes rather than quads and lower back. I'd heard the advice to "drive through the floor, push the ground away from you" but it never really rang true while my shin angle was forcing the bar away from my body. But sitting back with the shins vertical, I get this stretch that brings to mind a cable from the sacrum to the back of the knee, My mental picture is one of shortening this cable, bringing about a lever action, pulling the sacrum lower and the rest of the torso higher, i.e. pivoting the torso about the hip joint. For me, the advice to "drive through the floor" needed to be accompanied by "...using your glutes and hammies, not your quads".

This is what it currently looks like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-TAolxgYBI

Anyway, I got a couple of reps in (not shown here) where it felt like it came together. But in general I've got a lot of muscle patterns to unlearn and I'm finding it a little difficult to get it all together right now. Toward the end I discovered that a good cue was to start the movement by squeezing my glutes strongly; that seemed to get the firing pattern & timing about right.

It's a work-in-progress but if any of this rings true for some future quad-dominant, biscuit-backed, self-trained, deskbound noob then it's all good.

 

[0ni]

Very good Zoot.
Now just complete the rep by pushing the hips through instead of using the lower back
This will take a good 3" off the RoM and you're less likely to get back issues

 

[judgey]

Zoot, I would search on YouTube for thibaudeau's t-nation vid about dead lifting. Made me realise there's different starting positions, even for the regular deadlift. Your lift looks awesome to me. Me doing 2x130x5 looks a wholeeeee lot less comfortable than your lift just then

 

[Goosey]

Very good, you'll get there.

It's a whole body lift.

 

[Zoot]

Very good Zoot.
Now just complete the rep by pushing the hips through instead of using the lower back
This will take a good 3" off the RoM and you're less likely to get back issues

I fluked one or two reps where it felt like the hips were doing the work instead of the lower back, but then I reverted...

I don't understand the ROM savings, though. Could you break this down a bit?

 

[Zoot]

Zoot, I would search on YouTube for thibaudeau's t-nation vid about dead lifting. Made me realise there's different starting positions, even for the regular deadlift. Your lift looks awesome to me. Me doing 2x130x5 looks a wholeeeee lot less comfortable than your lift just then

Thanks Judgey, I think I've stumbled across this one before

Deadlift - YouTube

but this Dissecting the Deadlift article had some good stuff too.

 

[Zoot]

Very good, you'll get there.

It's a whole body lift.

Thanks mate, it sure is. Although I think my toes sometimes get a bit of a free ride.

 

[0ni]

I fluked one or two reps where it felt like the hips were doing the work instead of the lower back, but then I reverted...

I don't understand the ROM savings, though. Could you break this down a bit?

I'm shit at explaining things over the internet so I'll see if I can make a video tomorrow

But essentially, you're just pushing your dick forwards as the bar passes the knees. Don't worry about the back at all. When you finish the rep, your back will still be rounded but hips and knees locked out. You're currently using the back to assist with lockout to make it easier on the hips, so your finish position is about 3" higher than it could be because your back is straight or extended rather than rounded

 

[Zoot]

I'm shit at explaining things over the internet so I'll see if I can make a video tomorrow

But essentially, you're just pushing your dick forwards as the bar passes the knees. Don't worry about the back at all. When you finish the rep, your back will still be rounded but hips and knees locked out. You're currently using the back to assist with lockout to make it easier on the hips, so your finish position is about 3" higher than it could be because your back is straight or extended rather than rounded

I think I get it - it must be an upper-back and shoulder rounding thing you're talking about here. If I'm visualising it right, I should be ensuring that the shoulders are sagging/staying close the the ground, instead of leading with the shoulders kinda pinned back like I do at the moment.

 

[0ni]

Yeah pretty much
Check out this, especially the last rep. You'll see how he is struggling to lock it out but just pops the hips in and he is still rounded forwards.