Fatties and body recomp

[Riddles]

I was going to give a big background spiel but I'll just say this relates to my current situation and me wanting everything at once. Lot's of info around seems to be either people relatively lean trying to get that bit extra or fatties who don't train so I'm getting a bit stuck. But instead I'll just ask the questions.

-For those who are overweight/obese/have high fat% can they expect to gain muscle while also losing fat compared to a leaner person?

-If so, how much difference would you expect?

-At what bodyfat% (for both men and women) would you expect to need to go to a stricter plan such as meal timing and bulk/cut cycles to continue to see results?

-For this sort of person training what would you focus on diet wise? e.g. simply Calorie content and perhaps some macros?

 

[Semillon]

Former fatty checking in.

-For those who are overweight/obese/have high fat% can they expect to gain muscle while also losing fat compared to a leaner person?

At first yes, as you begin to exhaust your newbie gains and reduce bodyfat %, this sadly goes away

-If so, how much difference would you expect?

Well it depends... if you eat at maintenance (ie: weight stays approx the same), you will just slowly experience some body re-composition. If you eat in a small calorie deficit, you will be able to reap newbie gains at pretty much the same rate as a lean person eating at a slight surplus, since you already have the energy stored in your body. This would lead obviously to faster fatloss.

-At what bodyfat% (for both men and women) would you expect to need to go to a stricter plan such as meal timing and bulk/cut cycles to continue to see results?

It depends on the individual, meal timing is completely irrelevant for everyone however.

-For this sort of person training what would you focus on diet wise? e.g. simply Calorie content and perhaps some macros?

Yes counting calories is important, you need to work out what your maintenance level is in order to exert greater control over your body size/type.

If I had my time over, I would eat at maintenance for the first 6-12 months, being sure to keep my protein intake at approx 1.5-2g per kg of bodyweight. After I exhausted the newbie gains, I would put myself in a slight calorie deficit until such time as I was happy with my bodyfat %, then shift focus to strength and/or muscle mass.

 

[kaz]

Former 3 time fatty checking in!

 

[Riddles]

Hey Kaz,
I'd be interested to hear how your progress went to get to where you are now. What worked, what didn't work etc.

 

[kaz]

The first 2 times I lost weight the extent of physical activity was aerobics and alot of it, I counted my calories manually with Dr Alan Borusheks Diary and Fat counter which was probably the extent of my nutritional knowledge. Very little muscle mass gained.

The final time I did get into weights through crossfit, weight training for a cardio response. Rest days were walking days where I still clocked up some few km's a day
How I trained
- 2 x Crossfit per week
- Upperbody day
- Lowerbody day
- Walking/cycling every other day
I found this worked!

Building muscle: was only determined by how much stronger I was getting and what bumps poked out as my body fat dropped. I deadlifted almost double bodyweight on my first session at Ptc.

As for finally getting my muscle mass measured.....
3 months of strict dieting saw little muscle gain but good fat loss.
http://ausbb.com/member-pics-videos/17204-3-month-dexa-comparison-results-deep.html

What doesn't work
- Red Bull Diet (dont ask)
- Tony Fergusson

This last year I did a "bulk" and gained 2kg of musclemass but bodyfat increased also. Next time or if I had to do it again, I'd keep a low fat intake, high protein intake and the rest will be "good" carbs from brown rice, oats etc and just a moderate amount of cardio.

 

[kaz]

-For those who are overweight/obese/have high fat% can they expect to gain muscle while also losing fat compared to a leaner person?

-If so, how much difference would you expect?

-At what bodyfat% (for both men and women) would you expect to need to go to a stricter plan such as meal timing and bulk/cut cycles to continue to see results?

-For this sort of person training what would you focus on diet wise? e.g. simply Calorie content and perhaps some macros?

Dietwise, I wouldnt think much more into bulk/cut/strict until food cravings are out of the system and you can prove to yourself you can control your food. If you make it too difficult you are going to set up for failure.

 

[jamesyboi]

-For those who are overweight/obese/have high fat% can they expect to gain muscle while also losing fat compared to a leaner person?

-If so, how much difference would you expect?

-At what bodyfat% (for both men and women) would you expect to need to go to a stricter plan such as meal timing and bulk/cut cycles to continue to see results?

-For this sort of person training what would you focus on diet wise? e.g. simply Calorie content and perhaps some macros?

Q1 - You'd want to 'try' maintain as much LBM as possible as you cut down/drop fat. So make sure your lifting heavy and getting enough protein. This also helps with any loose skin you may get on your cut, how much do you have to lose?

Q2 - Meal timing, does not really matter. It's about Macros and eating under your maintenance. Less carbs on non training days.

Depending on how much you have to lose, you may want to try IF, to try break plateaus as it worked for me. But I was not diciplined to stay on it for a long period of time.

Apparently 'carb cycling' is a good thing too. (mon-fri = 0 carbs, have a carb repletion on weekends then repeat the cycle)

Keep a diary and write down your calories and macros and foods.

Take photos regularly, and measurements and bodyfat tests.

The scales are only good for so long, especially if your lifting heavy and getting your protein.

 

[jj80]

-For those who are overweight/obese/have high fat% can they expect to gain muscle while also losing fat compared to a leaner person?

-If so, how much difference would you expect?

-At what bodyfat% (for both men and women) would you expect to need to go to a stricter plan such as meal timing and bulk/cut cycles to continue to see results?

-For this sort of person training what would you focus on diet wise? e.g. simply Calorie content and perhaps some macros?

You can expect to gain some muscle but not if you're already very strong, IN MY EXPERIENCE. You may be different.

E.g. :

1st time for me with weight loss:
Lost 55kg, gained some strength over a year. Only really started lifting after 10 months. Benched 60kg for 1rm. Got to 10 chin ups or so. Strength increased during the final 2 months of dieting. I was completely untrained up until this point.

2nd time (now):
Benching 130kg and doing 15-20 chin ups at a much higher bodyweight so... Although I don't have a lot of muscle I do have more than is normal for me. I can't seem to get more muscle while losing weight. If I have it's been very minimal.

Macros? They say keep protein high while cutting. I've always done this... As for bulk/cut cycles and all that it feels like it's necessary for me if I want to keep getting stronger these days. I've never tried anything complex like IF or carb cycling.

 

[iBug]

I was going to give a big background spiel but I'll just say this relates to my current situation and me wanting everything at once. Lot's of info around seems to be either people relatively lean trying to get that bit extra or fatties who don't train so I'm getting a bit stuck. But instead I'll just ask the questions.

-For those who are overweight/obese/have high fat% can they expect to gain muscle while also losing fat compared to a leaner person?

-If so, how much difference would you expect?

-At what bodyfat% (for both men and women) would you expect to need to go to a stricter plan such as meal timing and bulk/cut cycles to continue to see results?

-For this sort of person training what would you focus on diet wise? e.g. simply Calorie content and perhaps some macros?

Q1. I was like averageish-overweight back in the day, however do know it is possible. My weight has changed roughly 3kg or so. However I have gone from gut benching 60kg 1RM to now about 110kg 1RM and abs, upperbody and legs starting to become extremely lean and toned. Yet still have only lost 3kg overall.

Q2. As said above. Just mix hypertrophy for some of those feel the pump days and then other days I work purely on strength. Building the best of both worlds. Hypertrophy with short rests will lean you down, strength training with increase your capacity to lift heavier.

Q3. I found it was extremely easy to break from 20% downwards. Now im about 12%ish I believe my diet is strict, the lower you get the harder it is to get leaner. I have been trying to crack under 10% for close too 2-3months now

Q4. I focus on calories and macros. Off-days I will eat around 2650cals, however on/training days I push that up to 3200ish cals. I workout at night, so I try to eat all my carbs prior workout (bro science) and then after gym usually 6pmish, I will have a shake and then maybe some meat and veggies, but all breads, nuts, pasta are all prior workout.

 

[nazzysmith]

Q1. I was like averageish-overweight back in the day, however do know it is possible. My weight has changed roughly 3kg or so. However I have gone from gut benching 60kg 1RM to now about 110kg 1RM and abs, upperbody and legs starting to become extremely lean and toned. Yet still have only lost 3kg overall.

Q2. As said above. Just mix hypertrophy for some of those feel the pump days and then other days I work purely on strength. Building the best of both worlds. Hypertrophy with short rests will lean you down, strength training with increase your capacity to lift heavier.

Q3. I found it was extremely easy to break from 20% downwards. Now im about 12%ish I believe my diet is strict, the lower you get the harder it is to get leaner. I have been trying to crack under 10% for close too 2-3months now

Q4. I focus on calories and macros. Off-days I will eat around 2650cals, however on/training days I push that up to 3200ish cals. I workout at night, so I try to eat all my carbs prior workout (bro science) and then after gym usually 6pmish, I will have a shake and then maybe some meat and veggies, but all breads, nuts, pasta are all prior workout.

Agreed... And nice work on the weight loss!

Q2 where you suggest hypertrophy training with short rest breaks will lean you down... Agreeably adding lean mass will lean you out and lower your bf% if you do it right...

Perhaps your answer to question 3 is to do a short period of eating at maintenance heavily focused on hypertrophy...


Also inb4 someone points out carb timing doesn't matter...and that the moon will crash into the Sun if you do!!!

 

[Big Mick]

For dropping fat and gaining muscle may be give 'Carb Nite' or 'Carb Back Loading' a go.

Not going into it here, but you might have to read these yourself and make up your own mind.

 

[Bazza20]

For dropping fat and gaining muscle may be give 'Carb Nite' or 'Carb Back Loading' a go.

Not going into it here, but you might have to read these yourself and make up your own mind.

Doesn't carb back loading recommend a whole lot of carbs you are against.

 

[Big Mick]

Doesn't carb back loading recommend a whole lot of carbs you are against.

But she is not me, she has to find what works for her, which part of find what works for you is so difficult for you to understand

 

[wingman]

If meal timing is scoffed upon, how come diets like IF and CBL work? These are centred around meal timing.

 

[MaxBrenner]

I wrote this up some time about about carbohydrate cycling etc. IMO it is really unnecessary for about 90% of the population and for people at the extreme low levels of BF to try to get an extra SLIGHT benefit for body composition.

To most people I say don't waste your time fussing over it. Long term calorie balance is what matters the most and trying to manipulate macros for a potential minor benefit is just not worth the hassle.

The BodyEvolution Report: Gaining Muscle while Dropping Body Fat & Carbohydrate Cycling

 

[jzpowahz]

If meal timing is scoffed upon, how come diets like IF and CBL work? These are centred around meal timing.

IF: because it basically forces people into a calorie deficit. (unless they can SERIOUSLY eat)

CBL: because if they are doing it to the book, the non training days can typically create enough of a deficit to offset the carb loading on training days.