Fiber Damage Fiber Saturation.. Fadi, ur opinion pls?

BoyFromAus · Oct 4, 2009

Hi Fadi,

I was reading this article called Fiber Damage Fiber Saturation. It reminded me very much of your article on the different fibres. Can we get some of your feedback on how effective this training would be please? here it is

Eric said:
FIBER DAMAGE/FIBER SATURATION TRAINING is a training protocol advanced by Eric Broser. None of the methodologies are new...for example Bobo and others have long emphasized time under tension (TUT) principles & Bobo himself has emphasized pre-workout nutrition...never-the-less IMHO this training method is very adaptable and very effective. This thread hopefully will generate discussion from those that have utilized these methods and on how to adapt them to create programs for growth.

The following is Eric Broser's explanation of this training. I have edited it for brevity...and I am also inserting my belief that the nutrition protocol does not need to be followed exactly.

With FIBER DAMAGE/FIBER SATURATION TRAINING (FD/FS) the workout is basically broken into 2 phases.

In the first phase (fiber damage), the goal is to utilize training protocols known to cause significant micro-trauma in the muscle fibers...a necessary step to setting the growth process in motion. The techniques to be used in order to achieve this goal are:

1) Heavy Weights,

2) Eccentric Emphasis, and

3) Stretch Under Tension.

Once you have damaged the muscle fibers the goal is to now bathe them with as much nutrient/hormone-rich blood as humanly possible (fiber saturation)... to facilitate immediate repairs, and take advantage of the fact that during a workout (especially when high repetitions are involved) there is as much as five times the normal amount of blood flowing directly to the muscles than when at rest.

The techniques to be used in order to achieve this goal (FS) are:

1) Very High Repetitions,

2) Continuous Tension, and

3) Post Activation Supersets (compound movement followed by isolation movement).

The goal when performing FS sets is to use a "piston-like" tempo, where the weight is almost constantly moving. There is no time for "stretch and squeeze," as all we wish to do is force so much blood into the target muscle that it feels like it may burst. The muscle has already undergone the trauma necessary during FD, and now it is time to nourish it.

In order for FD/FS training to work to its potential, there is also a nutritional protocol to be used along with the program. The types of training techniques utilized during the FD phase are very brutal on both the muscles and CNS, which is why the FS stage of the workout is a necessary component. Since there will be a tremendous amount of blood traveling to the muscles during FS, we can take further advantage of this by overloading the system with certain nutrients before, during, and right after training. The period starting from right before the workout to immediately after is your greatest opportunity nutritionally to hasten the muscle building process.

I would say that FD/FS training is about 30-40% more effective for muscle hypertrophy when the following protocol is utilized:

45 minutes before training:

-Whey Protein Isolate...50 grams
-Waxy Maize Starch or Maltodextrin…50 grams
-Vitamin C...1000 mg
-Phosphatidylserine...800 mg

Sip starting 15 minutes before workout and then throughout workout:

-Waxy Maize Starch or Maltodextrin...25 grams
-Gatorade or similar drink containing electrolytes and glucose...25 grams
-Essential Amino Acids 5-10 grams
-BCAA’s...15-20 grams
-Glutamine...15-20 grams
-Creatine...5 grams
-Beta Alanine...3 grams

15 minutes post workout:

-Whey Protein Isolate...50 grams
-Waxy Maize Starch or Maltodextrin...50 grams
-Antioxidant Blend (I like Radox by Syntrax)...1 serving

*Other ingredients can be used as well at all three times, such as ATP, citrulline, arginine, ALA, etc, but the above is more than enough to feed your muscles what they need.

Here is a sample chest workout for both intermediate and advanced trainees:

Intermediate FD/FS Workout:

-Bench Press...2 x 3-4 (3/0/X tempo) <- Heavy slow eccentric
-Incline Press...2 x 5-6 (6/1/1 tempo) <- Heavy slow eccentric
-Incline DB Flye...2 x 7-8 (2/4/1 tempo) <- Stretch under tension
-Machine Bench Press...1 x 30-40 (1/0/1 tempo; non-lock-out reps) <- Fiber saturation "pump" set
-Smith Incline Press...1 x 30-40 (1/0/1 tempo; non-lock-out reps)<- Fiber saturation "pump" set
-Cable Crossover...1 x 30-40 (1/0/1 tempo)<- Fiber saturation "pump" set

*Rest between sets on first three movements should be about 2-3 minutes. Rest between sets of last three movements should be no more than 1-2 minutes.

Advanced FD/FS Workout:

-Bench Press…2 x 3-4 + 1-2 forced reps (3/0/X tempo) <- Heavy slow eccentric
-Smith Incline Press...2 x 2-3 +1 + 1 + 1 rest/pause style (6/1/1 tempo) or ...Eccentric Only Smith Incline Press**...2 x 5-6 (6 second negatives) <- Heavy slow eccentric
-Incline DB Flye...2 x 7-8 (2/4/1 tempo) <- Stretch under tension
-Machine Bench Press...2 x 30-40 (1/0/1 tempo; non-lock-out reps)<- Fiber saturation "pump" set
-Superset: Machine Dips (1/0/1 tempo; non-lock-out reps) /Pec Deck (1/0/1 tempo)...1 x 20-25 each<- Fiber saturation "pump" set

*Rest between sets on first three movements should be about 2-3 minutes. Rest between sets of high rep movement should be no more than 1-2 minutes. Rest between exercises during superset should be no more than 15 seconds.

**When performing an eccentric only set you must have one to two spotters available to lift the weight back into the start position. Remember, most trainees are 30-40% stronger when lifting eccentrically than concentrically.

NOTE: The absolute MOST important part of FD/FS is the TEMPOS!!

To properly work the muscle the way we need to with the eccentric and stretch under load components (DAMAGE), the reps should be no higher than 6-10 maxiumum. I like 6-8 most of the time.

And, for the SATURATION you will need sets of 20+ reps...often as high as 50 for advanced lifters.

Max total sets for large bodyparts should be 7. For smaller parts, 4-6 sets.

Tempo refers to the amount of time in seconds it takes to lower a weight (eccentric contraction), hold the stretch position, and raise a weight (concentric contraction).

So, a 3/0/X tempo represents a 3 second eccentric, 0 second pause at stretch and an e(X)plosive concentric rep.

A 2/4/1 tempo represents a 2 second eccentric, 4 second stretch pause, and a 1 second concentric.

SECOND NOTE: I just want to mention that rest-pause is not an inherent part of FDFS, like it is with DC. The main components of FDFS are negative emphasis, stretch pause, and high rep blood saturation. While rest-pause CAN be added in...I have done this with masterschamp...it is not standard in FDFS. - EB

Fadi · Oct 5, 2009

Hi Rasika,

I've checked Mr. Eric Broser's article and I further checked his forum and what he had to say in depth about it. I believe it's recommended for only a short period of 3 weeks when on a muscle gaining cycle. In other words it's not a system he recommends one does all the time.

I must say, there are trillion styles of training out there and each has its "experts and gurus", coaches and scientists, as well as their followers. To name just a few: HIT, high volume, medium volume, failure/forced reps, high frequency and so on.

Now can I sit here and say that anyone of the above is a total rubbish and only one way will produce muscle gains; certainly not! Every style/system has its merits and short comings. The ultimate disaster as far as progress is concerned occurs when one arrogantly sticks to one view whilst punching the others in the face. You punch someone in the face Rasika and it's highly likely you'll get punched back...with just as much evidence/studies, and testimonials of trainees of that particular system you've just punched.

I say do not hold on to one view at the expense of ignoring all else that is available. After all, I or anyone else can put you on the "best" program on earth that is supported by scientific/empirical studies only to have you stagnate after a period of time. What then Rasika?

Change the bloody thing; that's what!

There are many points/principles raised in Eric's article but one that I had a question mark on (which I’m sure the man has an answer for) is this:

Once you have damaged the muscle fibers the goal is to now bathe them with as much nutrient/hormone-rich blood as humanly possible (fiber saturation)... to facilitate immediate repairs, and take advantage of the fact that during a workout (especially when high repetitions are involved) there is as much as five times the normal amount of blood flowing directly to the muscles than when at rest.

Granted that there are 5 times the normal amount of blood flowing directly to the muscles than when at rest; but we are NOT at rest here, we're still in the land of "catabolic"/muscle breakdown territory. Or in a word; GYM!

So unless I can super-compensate fully after this fiber saturation; then I would have just laid down the foundation for less recovery time for muscles that are severely damaged. I believe I talked about

Fiber saturation "pump" set

in a slightly different way than Eric and I remember saying do between 50-100 reps with a very light weight on your day off so as to facilitate nutrient dense blood entering the previously worked muscles.

Am I right and is Eric wrong? That's not the question for me; I'd utilise both approaches at different times and see what happens. But I would not stick to one method forever.

That old adage of: “if it aint broke don’t fix it”; is far away from: “if you find something good stick to it.” A bodybuilder who trains by going to failure for years and has the muscles to show for it, suddenly begins to rubbish that style when he finds “the new ultimate” style of training (irrespective of what it is). It wasn’t so much that the “new ultimate style” was the kicker of his progress into motion again nay; the catalyst was change itself, relatively speaking. That is why I’m being very conservative with my comments here; I’ve been doing this long enough to know that there is not only the one way to reach that mountain top. To say otherwise is to be arrogant and ignorant at the same time! That’s not my style Rasika.

Fadi Chemaissem.

lazy · Oct 5, 2009

Hi,

"in a slightly different way than Eric and I remember saying do between 50-100 reps with a very light weight on your day off so as to facilitate nutrient dense blood entering the previously worked muscles."

But wouldn't this cause muscle breakdown by the build up of lactic acide.

Here's the article on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy Muscle hypertrophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , it does exactly that but in a separate study Lactic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia it speaks of muscle breakdown (the burn) which would be caused by this type of hypertrophy.

During intense exercise, aerobic metabolism cannot produce ATP quickly enough to supply the demands of the muscle. As a result, anaerobic metabolism becomes the dominant energy producing pathway as it can form ATP at high rates. Due to the large amounts of ATP being produced and hydrolysed in a short period of time, the buffering systems of the tissues are overcome, causing pH to fall and creating a state of acidosis, a natural process which facilitates the easier dissociation of Oxyhaemoglobin and allows easier transfer of oxygen from the blood[2]. This may be one factor, among many, that contributes to the acute muscular discomfort experienced shortly after intense exercise.[citation needed]

BoyFromAus · Oct 5, 2009

thanks very much for your info Fadi. It's awesome how you gave input on it from a philosophical p.o.v as well as a bio-mechanical p.o.v. With novice people like myself, we're always in the mentality of looking for the "best approach". I guess that backfires at times.

Kyle Aaron · Oct 5, 2009

The wonderful about being novices, BoyFromAus, is that though we may be overwhelmed by all the different training methods, it doesn't matter much so long as we stick to them. Consistent effort gets results - even if that consistent effort is imperfect.

You may be interested in this review of resistance training studies. The bullet-points,

training needs to be individualised, according to the person's abilities and goals
exercises working multiple or large muscle groups show the biggest immediate response from the body
split or full-body routines, it makes no difference to beginners
if you are most interested in body part X, training the rest of the body plus X gets you better results with X than training X alone
going at 70-80% of 1RM is enough for beginners, but 85+% is needed for advanced trainees
single or multiple sets per body part, makes no difference to true beginners (first 6-12 weeks), but multiple sets
after being a beginner, a mixture of high and low reps gives the best size gains
training 2-3 times a week is best for strength and size gains, but 1-2 times a week can be used to maintain; however, many weightlifters train up to 18 times a week in short and specific sessions
as the trainee goes from beginner to advanced, what is good training for them narrows; most stuff works in the beginning, later they need specific stuff tailored for them

There are lots of other points in there but you get the idea, and it's there to read over if you want. Most of these points are confirmed by experienced coaches and trainers. And that's the best, when we can join the science and the experience.

Fadi · Oct 5, 2009

lazy said:
Hi,

"in a slightly different way than Eric and I remember saying do between 50-100 reps with a very light weight on your day off so as to facilitate nutrient dense blood entering the previously worked muscles."

But wouldn't this cause muscle breakdown by the build up of lactic acide.

Here's the article on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy Muscle hypertrophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , it does exactly that but in a separate study Lactic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia it speaks of muscle breakdown (the burn) which would be caused by this type of hypertrophy.

During intense exercise, aerobic metabolism cannot produce ATP quickly enough to supply the demands of the muscle. As a result, anaerobic metabolism becomes the dominant energy producing pathway as it can form ATP at high rates. Due to the large amounts of ATP being produced and hydrolysed in a short period of time, the buffering systems of the tissues are overcome, causing pH to fall and creating a state of acidosis, a natural process which facilitates the easier dissociation of Oxyhaemoglobin and allows easier transfer of oxygen from the blood[2]. This may be one factor, among many, that contributes to the acute muscular discomfort experienced shortly after intense exercise.[citation needed]

Lazy,

I don't mention hypertrophy when it comes to the 50-100 reps. What I do mention though is the building up of the muscle's capillaries,which would in turn facilitate muscle hypertrophy indirectly.

Fadi.

PTC · Oct 6, 2009

The most important information in regards to helping the OP are the last 2 lines of the OP post.

Its been overlooked.

How unfortunate.

lazy · Oct 7, 2009

Whats an OP? Last two lines of what?

Josh_GTiR · Oct 7, 2009

OP = Original Poster, well at least that is what I think it means.

I can see what Markos is saying about beginners (myself included) this is a massive post that goes on and on about drinking 5 drinks, doing X sets at this speed, blah blah blah. I think it is getting over complicated these days.

Eat (Good food), Lift (heavy and push yourself), Sleep (well). It is really that simple, isn't it? I love training, but I can't ever see myself getting this far into it, it takes away from what I love.

It seems a bit pointless to me (for beginners). When beginners see all of this stuff around it can get bloody confusing (not saying that to you BFA or anyone in this thread, just in general). Lift, Eat Sleep, it really is that simple, well at least that has worked for me????

Kyle Aaron · Oct 7, 2009

"OP" means "original poster", the person who started the thread.

I think Markos means the two-line signature of the post, rather than the post itself.

"Background: training from Oct 2008 to present.
"Strength: Bench 5RM: 80kg, Squat 5RM: 80kg, Deadlift 5RM: 110kg"

Going on his sig, I have roughly the same strength as Rasika, though have been at the gym only since April 2009 (because I was so unfit and weak, Jan-Mar 09 were walks, runs and bodyweight training to prepare). I've achieved similar strength in a slightly shorter time (still slow compared to what it could have been), but I am not worrying about this sort of stuff.

It's interesting to read and mentally file away for future reference, but it's just not relevant to me today. I need to get stronger on the basic lifts first.

Perhaps Rasika could explain why he's different from me, why he needs this fancy stuff but I don't. But most likely it's just never occurred to him. Sometimes we get so enthusiastic about walking among the trees we don't see the forest anymore, we get lost in the details. Enthusiasm is good - don't put it into reading and thinking, put it into lifting.

Markos is saying that Rasika (BoyFromAus) is just a beginner, so he doesn't need to worry about fibre-damage-fibre-saturation training or whatever this is about. Walk before you run, drive in a straight line before you do burnouts, learn to swim before you high dive, and so on.

As I said, consistent effort gets results. There's no need to look for fancy training routines. Pick a simple one and stick to it, if you get results keep going, if not then change it.

Josh_GTiR · Oct 7, 2009

I have seen alot of Rasika's posts. He seems to be a pretty astute person who does a lot of research about what he is doing. I don't blame him for wanting to exhaust all avenues to get the most out of his training, though I do think that alot of this is not needed. I mean look at all those drinks that you need to be drinking just to work out? Is it really necessary? I don't think it is if you don't have the 3 main ingredients nailed down.

As for Rasika and his lifts, I think you will find he was concentrating on cutting for some time and has only really started to push himself with the weights.

Kyle Aaron · Oct 7, 2009

Well I am the last one to mock anyone's lifts. I just mean that he's at a similar strength level to me, and I don't worry about this stuff, I just lift and eat and sleep.

Whereas if you've lifts like squat 140kg, overhead press 80kg or whatever, then maybe this fancier stuff can be helpful.

Josh_GTiR · Oct 7, 2009

I agree, if you get to a certain level maybe this fancy stuff can be helpful. I don't think I am anywhere near that yet.

1. Eat
2. Lift
3. Sleep

Let's not make this to complicated.

Hell that is what I have done over the last 1 year and 8 months. At the start I was doing useless excersizes as well, I pretty much did for my whole first year. I am now training alot better and my strength is coming up. I think the workout program listed in the first post seems a bit pointless myself, at least to beginners. I would not have thought like that until changing up to a program that actually works me and pushes me.

PTC · Oct 7, 2009

Burnouts before driving straight are totally acceptable if your car can do it without a foot on the brake lol

Kyle Aaron · Oct 7, 2009

I did a burnout when I was a learner. It was a rainy night after a long dry, and I on a hill at the traffic lights. Hit accelerator, ease off handbrake, what's that burning rubber smell?

Josh_GTiR · Oct 7, 2009

Take the water and hill out of the equation and you would probably be hard pressed to do a Burnout. ie Not enough power, which is where I think Markos was heading.

Kyle, after doing that did it make you feel like you wanted to do it again and again? What about a little sideways action around a corner??

NPR · Oct 7, 2009

Kyle Aaron said:
Whereas if you've lifts like squat 140kg, overhead press 80kg or whatever, then maybe this fancier stuff can be helpful.

I total over 800kg and the basics are still working for me, and I have a feeling they wont stop anytime soon. I did do a special bench program, but it was nothing exotic, just focussed.

Having said that I'm experimenting with my diet pre/during/post workout just to see if I can make an improvement.

Kyle Aaron · Oct 7, 2009

NPR said:
I total over 800kg and the basics are still working for me, and I have a feeling they wont stop anytime soon.

I believe you! And from the photos, you've certainly got the physique to go with the strength.

I just figure that when people reach a certain level, they'll have a feel for their body, for how different exercises and diet and so on affect them, and they can judge for themselves. But if you cannot even bench half your bodyweight then you just haven't developed that instinct yet.

Well, that's what I reckon, anyway.

Having said that I'm experimenting with my diet pre/during/post workout just to see if I can make an improvement.

It's endless, isn't it. Little tweaks here and there...

Fadi · Oct 7, 2009

Rasika acknowledges what everyone is saying here and explicitly said so...

With novice people like myself, we're always in the mentality of looking for the "best approach". I guess that backfires at times.

I see nothing unfortunate about someone/anyone wanting to expand on their knowledge. Rasika, I congratulate you for looking beyond your nose and for asking questions about what you know not. That’s one way of bettering one’s self.

Fadi.

BoyFromAus · Oct 7, 2009

thanks for the responses everyone. yea i've never bulked before.. it's been me trying to lose all the fat since 2008. Prior to that, i was gymming occasionally, but had no concept of diet etc (hence ended up lard).

I know I need to stick to basics and that such a program is for advance athletes. I also wasn't planning to drink all that stuff like the article suggested.

But what I wanted validation on was the whole concept of increasing recovery and growth by saturating muscles with blood after a strength workout. FDFS at first sight just seemed somewhat similar to when Fadi was talking about Active Recovery and capillary increase by doing hi-reps / low weights the day after workout.

Fiber Damage Fiber Saturation.. Fadi, ur opinion pls?

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