Opinions on Stronglifts

[Kyle Aaron]

Genes are a funny thing, Mzanin, there is no lab test to find out how strong you can get, you just have to get under the bar for a few years and find out. So when I hear "it's genetics", seems to me that's like saying, "it was the Holy Spirit." Maybe so, but can you prove it?

Obviously not, so just get under the bar for a few years and find out. I mean, you're stronger than me so obviously know what you're doing - I'm encouraging, not lecturing. Just go for it.

Obviously everyone has some limit, or else someone would have bench pressed 1,000kg by now. But our limits I think are often a lot higher than we imagined...

Stronglifts Mehdi is not very strong because he spends his energy promoting himself rather than lifting. Among coaches, this is not unique

 

[Aaron]

Also as far as I'm aware the Stronglifts guy didn't start lifting seriously until he was about 22-23...

And is now 28. Started strength training in 1997 - - Thirteen Years Ago.

Stats:

Deadlift: 170kg
Box Squat: 142,5kg
Box Front Squat: 130kg
Bench Press: 100kg
Overhead Press: 65kg

Cheers,

Aaron.

 

[Ben]

I'm amazed.

How can someone build such a large following, with such underwhelming results?

I'll be very disappointed if I don't hit those lifts inside 12 months.

 

[Aaron]

Oops, did I start something?

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Remember that Mehdi's lifts are impressive when people compare them to their fellow lifters in the typical mainstream gym. My own best lifts in October - 5RMs of SQ100 BP82.5 RW85 OHP55 DL127.5 - made me one of the strongest guys in my gym. A few guys benched more but they didn't squat or deadlift at all. And nobody here would think I'm strong. Certainly no-one at PTC would be impressed

I think Mehdi's following has less to do with his own lifts and more to do with offering a simple programme people can follow. Most new lifters are very overwhelmed with all the (dis)information out there, all the split sets periodisation supplements macros calories counting nonsense (it's nonsense for beginners, I mean). He also has a following, I think, because he has a very positive attitude, and ensures his forums remain polite, supportive and generally nice; also a contrast to most of the internet.

Mehdi's are about the lifts most people will be able to achieve on their own, it seems. Most of those I've heard of who lifted more had a very good and supportive gym, or a trainer supervising their lifting.

No-one goes very fast when they're following themselves.

 

[PTC]

The guys lifts are a joke and he should eliminate them from the site.

they are there to impress novices, and he structures his forum so you cant debate, then novices never find out the truth..................unless they stumble on a far more impressive system.

If you guys even knew how 5x5 came about and why Bill Starr started it I doubt anybody would follow it.

Another time.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

The guys lifts are a joke and he should eliminate them from the site.

Or rather, he should work hard and lift more

he structures his forum so you cant debate

This is true, I questioned, I was banned without warning, I'm not the first or last.

If you guys even knew how 5x5 came about and why Bill Starr started it I doubt anybody would follow it.

Another time.

Don't tease us like that, start a thread and tell us!

 

[PTC]

Firstly, I should explain why I rubbish his lifts. I'm not elitist with lifters, I was extremely weak when I started and I'll never forget. Anyone thats ever lifted at PTC knows that.

Now there is this guy. I'll give him a break and disregard his early lifting and focus on his 5 years of strength training only.

To keep this simple I'll select just one of his lifts. I'll choose the deadlift because it is arguably his best. Most would consider a 170kg deadlift @ 75kg pretty good.

Now, we all know that progressive resistance is how we get stronger, his forum is called Stronglifts, so obviously its strength based.

So five years after beginning strength training, he reaches 170kg in the deadlift. What rate of progress do we expect from this lift. Everybody improves at different rates, and novices have the biggest jumps. I'm only doing this to work out whats fair, after all, he charges $347 a month for his online training services. I'll wait for the PTC clients to regain conciousness.

I'll use Max to track his progress, just so we have someone of equal bodyweight, Max is only a handful of kilograms lighter.

September 2008 - Max deadlifts 140kg
January 2009 - Max deadlifts 150kg
September 2009 - Max deadlifts 170kg
December 2009 - Max deadlifts 200kg

Now there are numerous ways we can interpret these numbers, but the reality is, even if you only gained 20kg per year on your deadlift, which is incredibly easy, its only 1.6kg per month, and you started with 140kg, for a guy with as much training as he had BEFORE he focused on strength is an easy lift, he should be totalling much more than 170kg.

If my assumption that he began at 140kg is close, he has gained 30kg in 5 years, thats 500gms per month. Using these numbers, and recognizing that we increase our weights by 2.5kg, he would make his 5x5 every 5 months.

Can you imagine deadlifting 150kg x 5 x 5 for 5 months before you can increase to 152.5kg.

Remember I picked his best lift, imagine if I picked his BP or MP.

To put his progress in perspective, if Max improved at the same rate of 2.5kg per 5 months, his 140kg that he deadlifted at BATB2 in Sep 2008 would now be an astronomical 147.5kg.

Max has improved at the rate of 20kg per 5 months in that time frame (60kg in 15 months)

I picked that guys best lift and one of Max's worst lifts.

But I cant go onto his forum and debate that, I would be banned. Instead, this guy has 11,000 members, charges like no one I have ever heard of before at his level, and stooges innocent novices who truly want to improve and get stronger.

Now, how did 5x5 originate?

Bill Starr was an accomplished Olympic lifter and Strength coach. He was helping get lifting into high schools. PE teachers were not the most clued up guys when it came to weights in the 60's-70's, and schools didnt have a stack of equipment.

So Bill suggested squats,MP and powercleans, all done for 5x5, just to keep it simple. Some programs had slightly different exercises, but you get the idea. Just 15 sets all up for the kids, they moved from one group to the next, easy to supervise. It was designed for kids in an ill equipped enviroment.

In 1981 I was at St Kilda football club. They had just started a weight program and were quite chuffed. It consisted of squat/bench/deadlift for 3x3, we had less time.

It was simple and quick....convenient. The best program...lol, not by a long shot.

Over 99% of the kids had never seen a weight. It was funny when they asked me what weight I wanted for squats. We were doing bench squats so they were quite easy.

We didnt have Olympic bars, just regular bars weighing 25lbs and assorted plates. I told the strength and conditioning guy I wanted 3 plates. He asked me what size. All the guys before me were using 10lb to 25lb plate on each side, just the one. I said 3x50lb plates on each side. They stood around and mocked me. The 3x3 was easy.

Did I get anything out of it, you bet. Did the guys squatting 75lb(35kg). Not a fu c k i n g thing.

Thats my point, a strictly regimented program with fixed reps and exercises using low reps IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO TRAIN A BEGINNER.

Thats all I've been trying these followers of these lame programs, its not for everyone.

Tonight at PTC I had 5 guys set PB's in the overhead press, three of them managed 120kg overhead.

Thats not a typo, 120kg overhead.

Aaron came around and saw what Max looks like as well today, ask him if training for strength gives you big shiny muscles lol

Sorry about the long post, and if all you guys that read this could please deposit $347 into my account ot would be most appreciated lol

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Thanks for the rundown on things, Markos, very interesting to read.

Just one question:

So Bill suggested squats,MP and powercleans, all done for 5x5, just to keep it simple. Some programs had slightly different exercises, but you get the idea. Just 15 sets all up for the kids, they moved from one group to the next, easy to supervise. It was designed for kids in an ill equipped enviroment.

Wouldn't you say that "kids in an ill-equipped environment" is a bit the same as "some novice kid training on their own"?

Because as I said before, that's my thought about these kinds of programmes, with the strict and simple sets and reps - if the person is on their own without a trainer or experienced person to adjust things, it's a good way to start.

 

[Shotgun-Boogie]

$347 for an on-line program. What da f*ck? That's fricken astounding? What value do you get for that?
Seriously, what does membership get you? I'd look it yup myself but fear I'd fall off my chair in amazement and injure myself.

 

[Goosey]

Coach Starr used five because it was easy to remember.

I've given away a few copies of TSSS.

 

[BigJim]

I pull 150kg for reps and have done 165 x 1 just to see if i could after my normal dead routine. I dont even know what im doing i just try pick it up lol.
This was after 2.5 months lifting.

Maybe this $347 program is what i need.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

First up, I think posts #173 onwards should be split into a new thread, "opinions on stronglifts.com?" We have hijacked Markos' thread enough.

That said...

I am sceptical of all online training. However this is what Mehdi claims. He also asks for donations, "Make a Donation. Keeps the content free. I appreciate any amount. The most common donation I receive is 20$."

On his coaching page he also gives examples of what people coached by him achieve. Seems like they usually get a bodyweight squat for 5x5 in 2-3 months.

Yesterday one guy I trained had never squatted with a barbell before, I had him squat his bodyweight (75kg) for 3 sets of 10. One woman I train regularly went from never squatting to squatting 110% her bodyweight for 3 sets of 5, it took 3 sessions.

Maybe I should have asked them for 2 months x $347 = $694? I think they might have had just two words for me

Mehdi also claims,

"Save Money. Personal trainers charge 100$/session on average. You learn nothing in 1 session, so if you go to the gym 1x/week, you’ll spend at least 400$/month. They’ll only help you with your workout, not diet. There’s no monitoring. And you have no guarantee you’ll get results."​

$100/session? That would be nice
If you learn nothing in 1 session, then perhaps your trainer is not any good.
Yes, PTs do not help you with your diet, because PTs, unlike Mehdi, stick to things they have qualifications and experience in doing.
Monitoring progress happens during every session; every workout is an assessment, every assessment a workout.
Results cannot be guaranteed because they depend mostly on the effort of the person doing the training.

 

[Mzanin]

I didn't really want this to end in a shit fight about which program was better and hear people take the piss out of that Stronglifts guy.

I'll admit his lifts aren't that impressive, but they're still better than my lifts.
And for a recreational lifter who trains alone, who weighs 70kg and has a bf percentage under 10% all year round... has me beat by a long shot...

It's ridiculous what he charges (and I wouldn't pay anyone let alone some internet dude to train me), but from what I've read he quit his day job and all he does is this now. He's smart.

Hell, I wish I did that.

And to give credit where it's due I made massive improvements doing "stronglifts" (I'm calling it that for convenience). I gained 15kgs in 8 months...
I have suggested friends who were looking to get stronger, fitter etc... to stronglifts, just because it's easier than telling people to buy Starting Strength (for example).
All the information is there, inc. nutrition, training, faqs, videos, forums, etc...

My friend who has been doing a variation of 5x5 for 2 years now is squatting over 210 kgs raw.

 

[PTC]

Kyle your spot on about the simplicity and how advantageous it is for novices who dont have a lot of equipment, funds or coaching. It is perfect for that.

How many of them on here?

A tampon is a brilliant idea as well, but its not for everyone.

I joined the Stronglifts forum last night, just to have a look around, not cause trouble.

He is a much much much better businessman than trainer. I would say half the people on this website know more about training than he does, but thats not what his website is about unfortunately.

The way he has it structured doesnt allow novices to see an alternate way, so they blindly follow.

Scientology anyone.

I will gladly debate my system. I have never handed out a single warning in 5 years of moderation on my other website, just banned a guy for calling girls sluts. Some of the discussions have been monumental, I have been threatened (from afar lol), but I'll discuss my ideals with anyone.

This guy bans if you disagree. Smart? He's making the big bucks, so I guess he is, smarter than me anyway.

Anybody want to bet how long I'll last on Weaklifts...err Stronglifts.

 

[PTC]

How funny is that. While typing out the last post, I recieved an email from a guy in Darwin to train him online.

This is something I'm going to look into.

Karma

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Kyle your spot on about the simplicity and how advantageous it is for novices who dont have a lot of equipment, funds or coaching. It is perfect for that.

How many of them on here?

Glad to know I'm right about something

On here and in other places, and in person too, I do see quite a lot of people who are quite lost in their training, and who at the same time are not willing (most common) or able (rarer) to hire someone to train them, or get an experienced training partner. And lots who develop complex workouts nobody could possibly stick to.

So some are around, I reckon.

Anybody want to bet how long I'll last on Weaklifts...err Stronglifts.

I lasted two weeks, I think. I give you less than 20 posts

 

[Shotgun-Boogie]

PTC, you and other forum contributors, have already been giving me an on-line education for months now (I say thanks to you all as I've learned more these last few months than over the last few years).

Its much better to form your own conclusions from a range of views (and lets face it there are plenty differing views on here) rather than following a one-way only system of teaching.

To make informed decision in life, you need to know all the alternatives and decide what suits you and make the best choice (based on the best available info). I think it was Obi-Wan Kinobi who once said:

"Who is the more follish? The fool, or the fool who follows"

Deep sh1t!

PS: I aint paying you guys a single $ for all your great advice to date!!

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Shotgun-Boogie, if advice here has helped you achieve at least squatting your bodyweight for 3 sets of 5, you owe us $694.

 

[Bluey]

I give it 24 hours lol.