The Paleo/caveman diet

[Goosey]

As a pilosophy?

I just don't think science has done anything good.

Name something, don't say penicillin.

 

[trofius]

As a pilosophy?

I just don't think science has done anything good.

Name something, don't say penicillin.

Your first post i disagree with...

Pitty you rule out antibiotics, they are one of the greatest discoveries ever.

Science has contributed to every aspect of our lives, food, shelter, transport, and esp.health..

With out any of these advancements in the understanding and manipulation of the world in which we live, we would all still be living in caves, and dieing of tooth decay or a simple cuts long before we were 20

Sure there have been mistakes, or advancments without proper understanding fore thought, But in general our understanding today helps us to live better.

Is it possible to name one aspect of your life science had NO part in???

 

[Kyle Aaron]

If you don't feel science has added anything to your life you should definitely log off the internet

 

[pseudonym]

As a pilosophy?

I just don't think science has done anything good.

Name something, don't say penicillin.

Wow, it is hard for me to express just how much I disagree with that statement!

Science has given more to the world than religion ever did (or ever could hope to).

What has religion ever done other than subjugate ignorant and vulnerable people?

Sure there have been a lot of hospitals, prisons and schools built under religious auspices but it is easily arguable that any success they encountered was due to empirical scientific understanding of how things work rather than the gods they were built to pacify (for instance a sick person does not become well in a hospital because the people who built it did so through religious compulsion, they become well because the doctors there understand what was wrong with them and how to fix it through scientific method).

Science (in a broad sense) has given the human race an ability to free itself from ignorant faith that would rather see a child crippled with MS rather than experiment on stem cells to see if he can be cured (OK so we're not totally free from such ignorance just yet). It has enlightened us to the point that we do not have to be afraid of our world (or some misanthropic creature who controls it) but can strive to understand it and engage with it.

Science allows humanity to progress (even if sometimes - or perhaps even often - we choose not to) - religion, by it's very definition, cannot do this.

I'm not saying science has saved the human race from being a bunch of miscreant animals but it's done a better job than religion.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

On topic, there ain't much science in the "palaeo" diet. It's more just some bloke thumping his chest and saying, "men! eat meat! ugh!" Yeah, whatever.

 

[Goosey]

Although science has cured much sickness it has also caused much sickness.
Medicine has cure one thing and caused many other problems.

Messing with nature our minds, bodies and food has created many issues.

Just my thoughts.
To me- weight training like food is an art not a science.

 

[pseudonym]

On topic, there ain't much science in the "palaeo" diet. It's more just some bloke thumping his chest and saying, "men! eat meat! ugh!" Yeah, whatever.

It strikes me you didn't even have a cursory glance through the links I provided above (not to say you should have, but if you're going to make a claim like you just did it might have been a good idea).

To say that there ain't much science in the 'paleo diet' shows you've not taken much time to understand what exactly 'paleo' eating is all about. It's not a laboratory creation of course but it is based on some fairly well researched truths to do with the human body and it's response to different inputs (food, toxins etc).

For instance grains (and the gluten therein in particular) generally have a very strong inflammatory action in almost everybody (celiacs being the most obvious example but most people have some sort of reaction to them) and by cutting them out almost everybody will see a benefit (reduced instance of autoimmune disease, better insulin sensitivity, better sleep). (ref 1)

Similarly the role of carbohydrate metabolism in the creation (and storage) of adipose fat is becoming better understood which is making it patently clear that controlling carbohydrate intake is one of (if not the) best ways to control body(fat) composition. This is not news to anyone in the serious lifting and bodybuilding worlds obviously but it is taking the boffins a while to wisen up. (ref 2)

For a grounding in the 'science' behind a paleo approach to eating have a read of this.

With all due respect if you still believe that the 'paleo diet' is prefaced upon some arbitrary notion of what we think 'Og' used to eat well then I am not sure what more needs to be said.

NB I am uncomfortable with the term 'paleo diet' because it sounds like something you get in a box in the weight-loss corner of the chemist's, I put in in quotation marks simply to illustrate that discomfort - I really think it is better described as a nutritional approach but that's my own semantic burden to bear .

Ref 1: Robb Wolf | Podcasts - in almost every episode Robb Wolf touches on the issue of gluten it's effect on the human body. He cites a number of studies (particularly in episode 5) which I have not extracted here because I've not read them and so am really just taking his word for it (I'm happy to do that having got to know his approach to these things but have a listen to him and make up your own mind).

Ref 2: Eaton SB, Cordain L, Sparling PB. Evolution, body composition, insulin receptor competition, and insulin resistance. Prev Med. 2009;49:283-85.

 

[Shrek]

For a grounding in the 'science' behind a paleo approach to eating have a read of this.

This link does not work.

 

[pseudonym]

sorry about that - link fixed ... I think

For a real in depth look into the inner workings of 'paleo' I strongly encourage those interested to go to Dr Loren Cordain's published research page: Paleo Diet Articles, High Protein Diets, Low Carbohydrate Diets, Saturated Fats

If the link is not fixed you can access the publication I mean (Implications of Plio-Pleistocene Hominin Diets for Modern Humans) from the main research page.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

It strikes me you didn't even have a cursory glance through the links I provided above (not to say you should have, but if you're going to make a claim like you just did it might have been a good idea).

Absolutely I have had a look through, and I've read several books advocating this and similar diets. It's professional - even if I know it's bollocks, I have to be familiar with it because people I'm training will say "have you heard about..." etc.

To say that there ain't much science in the 'paleo diet' shows you've not taken much time to understand what exactly 'paleo' eating is all about. It's not a laboratory creation of course but it is based on some fairly well researched truths to do with the human body and it's response to different inputs (food, toxins etc).

It's based partly on studies dealing with individual inputs. That's one problem with the subject of nutrition.

In most of science, in experimenting they try to hold everything constant and vary just one thing and see what happens. From this they make conclusions about the effects of that one thing. The difficulty is that the human body is more complex than that.

For example, if you consume fibre you absorb vitamins better - so if there are 50mg of vitamin C in an orange, you'll actually get more of them if you have the orange than if you juice it and bin the pulp. But many of the studies that gave us recommended daily allowances are based on people taking vitamin pills - where most of it will be just pissed away. So the RDAs can be overstated because they're in the lab context, not the context of a complete diet.

There are a zillion things like that in nutrition.

For instance grains (and the gluten therein in particular) generally have a very strong inflammatory action in almost everybody (celiacs being the most obvious example but most people have some sort of reaction to them) and by cutting them out almost everybody will see a benefit (reduced instance of autoimmune disease, better insulin sensitivity, better sleep).

Rob Wolf may think so, but it's just not been shown. Large chunks of the world's population gets well over half their daily calories, protein and carbohydrates from grains. Not much lack of sleep, autoimmune disease and diabetes in rural India and China.

Whereas we have a fair amount in the West, where we eat more meat and nuts. Rising autoimmune issues, including allergies, are more commonly thought to be associated with an excessively clean lifestyle (everything bleached). Our immune system seems to be like our muscular system, it needs some work or it wastes away. Not much allergy to peanuts in Madagascar, or gluten intolerance in Kenya.

Rob Wolf is a former research biochemist. Google scholar shows us that he is or was interested in phospholipids - those are the compounds that form cell walls. Important stuff, no doubt, but nutritionist he ain't.

So Wolf's just another example of some guy who decides that this food is the source of most of the West's health problems, or that food could solve all those same problems. We get this for milk, food colouring, meat, all sorts of stuff. And from that decision he decides that he can make a fair wad of cash pushing his diet book and consultations.

I've had palaeos tell me I shouldn't eat grain because it causes autoimmune diseases, hypochondriacs tell me I shouldn't eat nuts because it'll create allergies, vegetarians tell me I shouldn't eat meat because "the human body isn't designed to eat it" and it'll give me bowel cancer, that I have to eat meat or I can't possibly build muscles, anti-milk people tell me it'll lead to osteoporosis, and so on. Not to mention the drongos who reckon vaccination causes autism.

So I'm sceptical that they're right this time, honest.

The simple fact is that human beings are bloody versatile. Through the world and history we have lived on a huge variety of diets and done well on them. The key thing is to get the nutrients in you, a bit of everything. Whether you do that without or without meat or grains or nuts or fruit or vegetables or whatever doesn't seem to be a big deal.

With all due respect if you still believe that the 'paleo diet' is prefaced upon some arbitrary notion of what we think 'Og' used to eat well then I am not sure what more needs to be said.

The thing is that this is a large part of the books written on the diet, and a larger part still of the advertising for them. I didn't write these books and adverts, it's not my fault if they want to babble on about what is "natural" to humans. They argue from history, but they don't even know history. Og the caveman had more grains and less meat than they think. And anyway he died before 30, so perhaps not the best example for us.

Like the vegetarians or anti-milk guys, they tell us this or that is "natural" and anything else will lead to an early and unpleasant death. Which is quite obviously bollocks, because it just hasn't.

 

[pseudonym]

I apologise that this will be so brief - I need to duck away for the evening but I'll try to get back to this (you may tell I have a keen interest in the topic and I'm glad to have people keen to debate it )

Absolutely I have had a look through, and I've read several books advocating this and similar diets. It's professional - even if I know it's bollocks, I have to be familiar with it because people I'm training will say "have you heard about..." etc.

I am very heartened to hear that ... truly I am - even though we obviously disagree on the import of these ideas it's outstanding to think that a prospective fitness professional really is just that.

It's based partly on studies dealing with individual inputs. That's one problem with the subject of nutrition.

In most of science, in experimenting they try to hold everything constant and vary just one thing and see what happens. From this they make conclusions about the effects of that one thing. The difficulty is that the human body is more complex than that.

I think humans are similar enough to extrapolate some data (particularly as it relates to food and nutrition) across the entire genus, the degree of effect may be varied but the base effect probably isn't (i.e. carbs do not make me as fat as a super endomorph but they make me fat none-the-less).

... Large chunks of the world's population gets well over half their daily calories, protein and carbohydrates from grains. Not much lack of sleep, autoimmune disease and diabetes in rural India and China.

How many studies have there been of rural Indian and Chinese communities to substantiate this? I would dare say modern medicine has no idea of the rates of diabetes or chrohns disease (for example) in either of those places.

Rob Wolf is a former research biochemist. Google scholar shows us that he is or was interested in phospholipids - those are the compounds that form cell walls. Important stuff, no doubt, but nutritionist he ain't.

hahaha this is a very ironic comment (do a quick google on CrossFit nutrition and Robb Wolf and you'll see what I mean). You're absolutely correct he is not a nutritionist but a biochemist - In my view this puts him in a better position to discuss the chemical effects of food on the human body than a nutritionist (who presumably only understands how they are told that food works on the body).

So Wolf's just another example of some guy who decides that this food is the source of most of the West's health problems, or that food could solve all those same problems. We get this for milk, food colouring, meat, all sorts of stuff. And from that decision he decides that he can make a fair wad of cash pushing his diet book and consultations.

He's not quite as black and white as that but essentially you're correct - diet and lifestyle are his big bug bears.

The simple fact is that human beings are bloody versatile. Through the world and history we have lived on a huge variety of diets and done well on them. The key thing is to get the nutrients in you, a bit of everything. Whether you do that without or without meat or grains or nuts or fruit or vegetables or whatever doesn't seem to be a big deal.

Yes but all nutrients are not created equal are they?

Humans are versatile and can survive pretty much any food that's true but we're talking about thriving - absolute optimum nutrition for life, not just to keep us alive but to do so and keen us in peak shape (however we may choose to define that).

 

[Goosey]

Blabber fingers at it again.

I did try to read your reply but found myself scratching out my eyes,
you can pontificate all you like Kyle, you can breeze the net picking up bits and pieces that make you seem or appear to read well versed.

Just shut-up for goodness sake, try it-if it works, good for you! if it doesn't, just give us your personal experience.

You need to spend more time lifting and less time blabbering.

 

[pseudonym]

I did try to read this but found myself scratching out my eyes.

Not sure if you mean my posts or the links therein (the scratching out of eyes is probably fair comment either way ) but I'm right there with you if you're talking about the links.

Cordain's work is way over my head most of the time which is why I like Wolf's podcasts - he breaks it down nice and easy for the layman - at over 1hr a shot you've got to have a lot of free time to get right into them though.

A little extra reading for those who may be interested

Gluten: What You Don't Know Might Kill You

Not strictly addressing the paleo diet but definitely food for thought (pun probably intended) when assessing the validity of the concept.

I also recently came across Lyle McDonald's bodyrecomposition.com and have fascinated myself for most of the afternoon with the articles there (for a bit of a balance to the paleo debate ... he is not a fan it seems). Definitely have a read if you're as time rich as I am just now.

And finally, Silverback is right: we're all just paying with ourselves if we're not actually following this (or any other) dietry protocol we discuss with such vigour. While some here will definitely disagree I believe theoretical debates are very useful and important (in almost all areas) but at the end of the day nobody can claim absolute knowledge without having experienced something for themselves.

To this end I hope I haven't come across as if I know anything for certain in regard to the paleo diet (I've dabbled but never embraced it fully - I'm both too lazy and too concerned with gaining weight). I am becoming ever more sure of the 'science' the more I educate myself about nutrition (a traditional weak point of mine) but I cannot claim it 'works' or it doesn't because I haven't given it a decent run.

This may change shortly and I shall start a paleo nutrition log if and when it does so we can all see what happens.

 

[Goosey]

Excellent.

Wolf is a clever man.

 

[Goosey]

Also a book of good reading, two books:
"good calories bad calories"
and an excellent book everyone should have, "muscle, smoke and mirrors"
this is the best book I have read to date, fascinating and educational.

 

[PowerBuilder]

good calories bad calories is a fantastic read. Gary really knows his stuff & writes really well!

 

[apiewithhoboliftingaroma]

Pseudonym, I think your posting style is great. You didn't come across like a twat at all, but rather someone interested in the debate without making it petty and personal and you would have happily admitted defeat and changed your opinion/belief if you had been proven wrong.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Gauche]

Also a book of good reading, two books:
"good calories bad calories"
and an excellent book everyone should have, "muscle, smoke and mirrors"
this is the best book I have read to date, fascinating and educational.

Add them to the "books to purchase" ( I cant remember if that is the right name might be "read") thread Dave started. I really think that should be a sticky thread as everyone can recommend a book that has helped them mature with knowledge in the nutrition/exercise side of things and its a good vice to share your information with others craving the knowledge.

 

[Gauche]

P.S I bumped the thread for you so its easy to find, its in the bodybuilding section.

 

[John555]

The food we eat today is different to what we ate back then. Domesticated animals vs wild animals are different. Wild animals are leaner, very little fat.

Personally I have tried this paleo diet but then it hit me,
you can't have it both ways. You cant just live in modern society and use computers to make these forum posts, drive cars, use lights, sleep late at night and still say "look at me, i eat what my people ate 50,000 years ago".