Weightlifting Maths

[PowerBuilder]

Lately I've been doing a bit of working out what I 'should' be snatching based on other lifts, ie clean & jerking &/or squats.

It is starting to get me a bit frustrated &/or disappointed.

There are a few different metrics, which leads to me to the conclussion that it's all a bit rubbery and that there's nothing set in stone. I thought I'd share some of my maths here.


My coach keeps saying...

What you can front squat for a triple, you should be able to clean it

That's all very nice. I did 95 for 4 last night, so according to the above logic I should be able to clean it. I possably could, I haven't had a max out session in a while. If I can clean 95, I should have a snatch of (around) 75kg. I don't.


There's also this logic

From R.A. Roman's book:

Clean and Jerk: Backsquat/1.25 to 1.35, sometimes higher, especially for higher wt classes.

Snatch .78 to .82 * c+j

Front squat: Varies a lot, as low as .8*backsquat, as high as .9*backsquat, sometimes much more than c+j, sometimes much less.

Robert Roman was a weightlifitng coach in the ol' Soviet Union days.

Here's my line of thought. I have a best squat of 130. We'll say my front squat is about 110kg. If the clean & jerk is between 1.25 and 1.35 of the back squat then I should be doing between 95 and 105kg.

80% of that is approximately an 80kg snatch. That is also not what I'm doing. Sorry for the randomness.

There are other log's I've run through but CBF'd running thru them now.....

This should probably be in my log..........

 

[Bazza20]

The answer to the question, what should I be lifting is pretty much always, more.

Keep it simple, fuck the maths and lift more weight. Don't worry about stuff that was designed for elite level lifters.

 

[Sticky]

In all honesty Pete, and dont take this the wrong way.... Look at the first page in your log.
now look at the last...

The weight being moved is very, very similar.... And thats around 18 months worth of training.

Im not sure if its programming that you have failed on, or whether you are just not suited for oly lifting or both... But something is not right.

I think you need to stop thinking so much, and just start doing becuase what your doing at the moment is clearly not working for you man.

 

[chocchillimango]

Lately I've been doing a bit of working out what I 'should' be snatching based on other lifts, ie clean & jerking &/or squats.

It is starting to get me a bit frustrated &/or disappointed.

There are a few different metrics, which leads to me to the conclussion that it's all a bit rubbery and that there's nothing set in stone. I thought I'd share some of my maths here.

My coach keeps saying...

That's all very nice. I did 95 for 4 last night, so according to the above logic I should be able to clean it. I possably could, I haven't had a max out session in a while. If I can clean 95, I should have a snatch of (around) 75kg. I don't.

There's also this logic

Robert Roman was a weightlifitng coach in the ol' Soviet Union days.

Here's my line of thought. I have a best squat of 130. We'll say my front squat is about 110kg. If the clean & jerk is between 1.25 and 1.35 of the back squat then I should be doing between 95 and 105kg.

80% of that is approximately an 80kg snatch. That is also not what I'm doing. Sorry for the randomness.

There are other log's I've run through but CBF'd running thru them now.....

This should probably be in my log..........

PB, for what it's worth, these are my thoughts:

The formulas and calculations from various sources - while I am not familiar with how these have been arrived at, I would be fairly certain that they are based on some considerable empirical data.
Based on that data, some idealised models have perhaps been built (possibly on a best fit basis). That is all well and good.

However, I would be careful in judging one's own progress against these metrics because:

1. They have undoubtedly been based on elite pro lifters with very specific and rigid training regimes etc, under supervision. You also don't know what other factors are involved in arriving at these metrics.

2. They ultimately don't factor in individual variances due to a multitude of factors regarding physiology, diet, training, etc etc.

Because of that, I am tempted to agree with the guys to an extent that there is a point at which one can over analyse one's situation. I'm prone to it too (ergo my squat meltdown a few weeks ago ).

Don't let analysis paralysis stop you from just getting on with some solid training. If you think you are behind where you should be on different lifts (or conversely, are you ahead of yourself on a particular lift in relation to others?? hahhh?? ), talk to your coach.

Maybe it's time to reassess and review. Leave the equations out of it for the time being.

Maybe not the answer you wanted to hear, but my key point is this: those equations are not set in stone. You said it yourself - RUBBERY. Like most things, they're likely to be guidelines only because of the undoubtedly limited parameters on which they are based.

 

[Oli]

Came in expecting a power builder post, left satisfied.

 

[Darkoz]

.............


Don't let analysis paralysis stop you from just getting on with some solid training...........

I like this ChocChilli!

 

[chocchillimango]

I like this ChocChilli!

coming from me, it's a little weird, yeah???

 

[Darkoz]

coming from me, it's a little weird, yeah???

Not at all, sounds logical to me

 

[PowerBuilder]

hey choc's (and everyone else). Thanks for having a bit of a think and gtting back to me.

Strangely after making the OP I caught up with a mate who's studying engineering at UTas as well as trains at my gym every so often.

He was saying a few of the thoughts mentioned earlier, about being so many unknown issues within these metric, ie training age. He also went on to explain how the snatch is a different mechanical beast to the back squat. I obviously knew it was different....but to hear about it from an engineer was quite novel. It goes along with the point that that technique is a key factor.

I remember watching a video on basic mechanical physics . The lecturer made the point that whenever making a measurement, there should always be considered room for error (epsilon-delta). Or simply a '±' function...

 

[NAPARM]

Mate you're really over thinking this, just get in there & train hard!

 

[chocchillimango]

PB, you have to think about it from the perspective of biomechanics (age, physiology, other factors all being equal).

If you like the mechanical side of things (makes me all tingly too ), this site has some nice tidbits and analysis, amongst other things:
ExRx Exercise Information

 

[0ni]

If you front squatted 95x4, can clean it but can't snatch 75, that would tell me that it's your snatch you need to practice

I have read about those ratios before, it was in a Dan John book I read about the "what you can front squat for a triple you can clean" as a quote from a Russian coach. I guess that was lost in translation slightly though as what you can clean also depends on technical mastery and pull strength etc etc. I would say that you should be able to stand up with what you front squat for a triple with. Bear in mind that these ratios were made for Russians as well and unless you have Russian heritage will most likely have different bodily proportions to them and will have your own golden ratios.

Personally I think the Olympic lifts are pretty fucking simple to program (not saying that I'd be any good at it though, strictly from a programming point of view here). It's basically:

Can't stand up in the clean - work on front squats
Adequate front squat strength - work on pull strength and low bar squats
Lack of pull strength in snatch - lots of snatches
Lack of overhead strength - lots of strict and push pressing
Work on technique the whole time

I don't see any reason why it would need to be much more complex than that (complexes however are awesome for working on weak points). The ratios are great but I'd try to work out your own ratios. Look back in your training log and find the times when you made killer progress and the point where that progress slowed back down to normal. Look at your ratios at both points and compare, you will find correlations and be able to know what needs working on. I find the body likes being perfect and you need to strive to screw your ratios up a bit to allow headroom for your other lifts so you can work on them and make the ratios right again... if that makes sense. Say my deadlift likes being 20kg more than my squat (pulling this out my ass) and my deadlift is stuck at 100kg, I will get my squat up to 90kg and allow this headroom for my deadlift... screw it up, then fix...

 

[PowerBuilder]

thanks again everyone for your thoughts and encouragement.

Possably I have been misunderstood. I front squatted 95 for 4 reps, I have not attempted to clean it. Based on the metric, I should be able to clean and jerk it. If that is what i can c&j I should be snatching about 75kg.

I am starting to feel really retardex as a result of my coaches work with me when training at competitions. This year I have not attempted any decent lifts in a competition...all my attempts are very easy lifts, around 90-95%. Sure I get 6/6 ...but I want to test myself....if I can't test myself in a competition setting...or even max sessions...what's the point. There have been max out sessions where I've been encouraged to drop the weight and max out on that for reps.


I feel that this periodization thing is making me weaker. I approached him tonight explaining that I want to do the generic program I was given (not from him) for an indefinite period of time. I feel that it is a great program for beginners and that's what i am. I found it a bit scary talking to him about it....but felt I neeed to.

 

[Darkoz]

^ why, do you suffer from it?