Strong Lifts 5 x 5

[0ni]

I still think a beginner would make better progressing doing chins than rows
People performing an exercise with shitty form isn't a reason for not doing it and doing another exercise instead

 

[dave]

Aye ^

I've always said the only 'machine' I would ever have in my gym is a lat pulldow/seated row combo (or some form of row machine).

Simply because from my own experience concentrating on getting popular retraction is hard enough, let alone when you're worrying about balancing with the weight etc.

Dave would you suggest using a wider grip on the rows as opposed to a closer grip? Or will retraction be largely the same in both?

I have no issue with either as long as you can retract your scapula and subsequently your shoulders properly. Personal preference is for a flat mid sized bar.

 

[The Hamburgler]

Cool figured as much, I typically do them (when I'm in a commercial gym obviously) with the same width grip as bench

@ Oni: LOL so you'd prefer them to do it with shitty form? Over doing another exercise, which could be argued as being more beneficial for overall muscle/joint health, properly?

 

[dave]

I still think a beginner would make better progressing doing chins than rows
People performing an exercise with shitty form isn't a reason for not doing it and doing another exercise instead

Ah yeah it is (dependant on degree of shittyness). Either you reduce loading and correct from and progress from their or you do something similar that can be done properly and work up to the other exercise. I am no super form Nazi like some people I work with but there are limits.

 

[0ni]

Cool figured as much, I typically do them (when I'm in a commercial gym obviously) with the same width grip as bench

@ Oni: LOL so you'd prefer them to do it with shitty form? Over doing another exercise, which could be argued as being more beneficial for overall muscle/joint health, properly?

I'd rather they learned correct form from the start. Not everyone can squat perfectly the first time they try, hay guise why don't we just get them to do leg press instead of practicing correct form with a broomstick!!!1

Ah yeah it is (dependant on degree of shittyness). Either you reduce loading and correct from and progress from their or you do something similar that can be done properly and work up to the other exercise. I am no super form Nazi like some people I work with but there are limits.

I have trained a few people, mostly girl-friends and gymbros and if they can't perform chins I get them to learn the form on the counterweighted thing with most of their bodyweight counterweighted and when they have form correct they will do negatives on a bar freely or in one gym they had resistance bands and they did them inside of them

 

[The Hamburgler]

What if they can't perform correct squat form with a broomstick?

And there is more to performing a pull up correctly than just pulling yourself up to the bar

 

[0ni]

What if they can't perform correct squat form with a broomstick?

And there is more to performing a pull up correctly than just pulling yourself up to the bar

Then they practice with the stick until they can do it. I found out today that I can't do a single overhead squat with the bar so instead of being an idiot and loading the snatch I'm just going to work on flexibility until I can perform the overhead squat with a broomstick perfectly then move onto the bar. I think perfect form is the enemy of the trainee if you get me but it should be correct before it starts to be loaded in ANY exercise

 

[nazzysmith]

Had a good look at the SS program.... Thanks for the heads up...

As a result I think we will be adopting the SS program and tweaking parts of the workout to suit us...

Very excited about this... Having done little to no legs there is a lot of room for me to make big gains in this area...

 

[The Hamburgler]

Then they practice with the stick until they can do it. I found out today that I can't do a single overhead squat with the bar so instead of being an idiot and loading the snatch I'm just going to work on flexibility until I can perform the overhead squat with a broomstick perfectly then move onto the bar. I think perfect form is the enemy of the trainee if you get me but it should be correct before it starts to be loaded in ANY exercise

The boldest is basically the same as what both myself and Dave have suggested - progressing from a less technical lift to the 'goal' lift.

In your case overhead squats into snatch.
In the case of pull ups, seated row/lat pulldown, then DB/BB rows then pull ups (as an example).
As for squats, you have goblet and box squats progressing into back squats.

 

[bro]

That makes me curious Oni, I've never tried a OH squat in my life and I know they are hard, but I'm sure I can do one with the bar. I'm pretty sure I should be able to get one with 40kg. This will be a fun experiment.

 

[0ni]

The boldest is basically the same as what both myself and Dave have suggested - progressing from a less technical lift to the 'goal' lift.

In your case overhead squats into snatch.
In the case of pull ups, seated row/lat pulldown, then DB/BB rows then pull ups (as an example).
As for squats, you have goblet and box squats progressing into back squats.

I'm sorry but I don't see how lat pulldowns or bb rows are good progressions to pull-ups. Maybe in the case of capn 400lbs it would be way easier to do lat pulldowns instead of chins but I don't see the point in changing the entire routine for 1% of the population who can't do a controlled negative

That makes me curious Oni, I've never tried a OH squat in my life and I know they are hard, but I'm sure I can do one with the bar. I'm pretty sure I should be able to get one with 40kg. This will be a fun experiment.

It's more a flexibility issue tbh. I think when I can do it with the bar I should be able to load it up to 40kg no problem

 

[Goosey]

If you want to get good at chin-ups do them
Pulldowns are not the same exercise.

I believe Dan johns progression to squat is;
Freehand squat
Goblet
Overhead
Front back.

Then back squat

 

[The Hamburgler]

I'm sorry but I don't see how lat pulldowns or bb rows are good progressions to pull-ups. Maybe in the case of capn 400lbs it would be way easier to do lat pulldowns instead of chins but I don't see the point in changing the entire routine for 1% of the population who can't do a controlled negative

You would if they were paying you to.

 

[dave]

Shit me I must get a lot of that 1% coming to me for training. Oh wait no I have overweight weak middle aged female office workers. I think you need to review your statistics Oni.

 

[0ni]

I'm sure you have resistance bands in your gym to aid them in pull-ups though Dave.
Tbh I doubt my mother (age 48) could do inverted rows or a 40kg barbell row with good form (10kg are the smallest bumper plates in her gym) but I bought some resistance bands a few months back and she has no problem doing chin-ups with the bands assisting her. She uses the counterweighted machine as well but I don't really like that

I guess you could just bend over and row with the bar but then it would be hard to make the lift explosive

 

[The Hamburgler]

How would it be hard to make the lift explosive?

That's like saying a hang clean isn't explosive because it isn't done from the floor.

 

[dave]

All those options do not allow the focus of a cable row for someone with poor retraction. Though I would use assisOted Pullups in the program as well.

 

[0ni]

How would it be hard to make the lift explosive?

That's like saying a hang clean isn't explosive because it isn't done from the floor.

You're wasting a lot of energy lowering the bar to the correct position. Pendlay rows you row it up then drop it to the floor again. Rip explains it well in his vimeo video

All those options do not allow the focus of a cable row for someone with poor retraction. Though I would use assisOted Pullups in the program as well.

What would you say the logical progression is for someone that can't do assisted chins? Seated row + lat pulldown?

 

[The Hamburgler]

If you're honestly worried about wasting energy lowering a BB row then you got serious "lack of balls" issues.

ps if you REALLY want to do them from a complete stop do them off the pins in a fucking power rack.

 

[TrentZor]

/popcorn