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Assistance programming

I just got 5-3-1 and it backs up something Oni said a while ago - don't bother with chains and bands on bench unless you're using powerlifting gear. The strength curve for benching with gear is easy at the bottom, hard at the top, and the reverse for raw benching. Improving the top portion of your lift doesn't help raw lifters very much at all.

I believe now that assistance works really well when you're hitting something that didn't get enough work during the main movement. e.g.:

Bench - most people weak at the bottom. Pecs/shoulders fail first. Triceps not trained to exhaustion. Therefore train triceps afterwarrds to hit them adequately.

Chins - I fail at the top / 1/2 way when my biceps come into play. Biceps fail before much stronger lats. Therefore train lats with rows after chins.

Doing both these things has helped my strength, I think.

I don't follow 5/3/1 by the way, I ordered it months and months ago and have been told since not to follow it as I'm a beginner. It's still a good read though.

Yep... this is the main reason I think close grip bench is so good for the raw bencher. It's not the fact that it "trains the triceps", more that bringing the grip in means that your elbows are lower when the bar hits your chest - it's essentially the bench equivalent of deep squatting and deficit deadlifts. Just my opinion but I'm pretty confident that some popular guy is going to start talking about how strength of the bottom is the most important part before long and put this weak point shit to rest... unless you radically change your form you will always fail in exactly the same position

So good assistance by my opinion for the three lifts:
Bench - paused close grip bench and triceps hypertrophy work
Squat - squats paused in the hole and hamstring hypertrophy work
Deadlift - deficit sumo pulls and rhomboid hypertrophy work

People won't pay attention though, it's not fancy enough and too simple lol
 
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If you fail at the bottom bottom your cheast is weak... You cant gt stronger but you will still have the same weak point... Train the chest more and it will be where the triceps kick in or at lock out..

Point being as long as you continually move forward something will be weak. Only when you are at a peak that not much more can be done does it all really become a make or break sort of thing.
 
Christian, i have never heard of or seen video evidence of a raw lifter actually changing their sticking point. They either get past it or they do not
 
This whole raw/gear sticking point weak stuff is bullshit.

You either make the lift or fail.

If you fail, it's because your not strong/powerful enough.

You have forgotten the meaning of power - to lift weights fast.

So if your "weak off your chest" it's because you can't generate enough force.

Get faster, get stronger.
 
@joe

Benching against bands/chains helps with rate of force development so they still have a place in a raw bench program
Like most things, they are merely a tool that can be used
 
No matter how strong you are you are always going to fail once you get to a certain weight & you are always going to fail the lift at a certain point, doesn't mean it's a 'weak point' imo
 
No matter how strong you are you are always going to fail once you get to a certain weight & you are always going to fail the lift at a certain point, doesn't mean it's a 'weak point' imo

Now we're getting somewhere, please elucidate, this is too cryptic for my liking.
 
No matter how strong you are you are always going to fail once you get to a certain weight & you are always going to fail the lift at a certain point, doesn't mean it's a 'weak point' imo

I am enjoying this thread, especially what Oni and Naparm have to say...kinda making me rethink why I am doing the assistance I am at the moment...
 
not quite
eating more calories = atp gain

I wouldn't mind seeing some facts to back this up Oni. As far as I know the muscular storage of ATP is only about ~100g depending on the individual and that's enough for 1-3 seconds of maximal effort. Then as effort continues CP stores come into play and eventually aerobic pathways take over.

As for sticking points, they are the moment in any movement where the person isn't able to maintain the adequate level of speed to pass their most disadvantaged position. It will either be because of muscular weakness which can be addressed (ie changed) or a biomechanically weak position.

Sticking points can be addressed by-

- Targeting the muscular weakness
- Position specific training (partials or isometrics)
- Developing acceleration so that when approaching the sticking point a higher bar speed is attained that will be able to push through that point.

"Imagine that the sticking point is a plank of wood and you're trying to go through it. If you approach it explosively, you have a much better chance of breaking it than if you gently approach it and then try to push it hard." - Dave Tate
 
I wouldn't mind seeing some facts to back this up Oni. As far as I know the muscular storage of ATP is only about ~100g depending on the individual and that's enough for 1-3 seconds of maximal effort. Then as effort continues CP stores come into play and eventually aerobic pathways take over.

As for sticking points, they are the moment in any movement where the person isn't able to maintain the adequate level of speed to pass their most disadvantaged position. It will either be because of muscular weakness which can be addressed (ie changed) or a biomechanically weak position.

Sticking points can be addressed by-

- Targeting the muscular weakness
- Position specific training (partials or isometrics)
- Developing acceleration so that when approaching the sticking point a higher bar speed is attained that will be able to push through that point.

"Imagine that the sticking point is a plank of wood and you're trying to go through it. If you approach it explosively, you have a much better chance of breaking it than if you gently approach it and then try to push it hard." - Dave Tate

OK first the ATP. You're correct that CP will take over after just a few seconds but after you rest the glycogen stores (which are bigger from eating more) will restore ATP. It's not making you STRONGER as such but increasing your work capacity a whole bunch. Hope this answers that. If not I can find some other sources but here is a start:
LIFT-RUN-BANG: Developing your raw bench - Part 1

I agree with you on the sticking point issue. Although I wouldn't call it "muscular weakness", I think this encourages "weak point training". Really it's just developing the muscular base that is needed for developing the lift. Targetting the weak part of the ROM did not work for me AT ALL, until I started thinking that the first part of the lift was the "weak point" and started pausing my benches, pausing my squats and doing my deadlifts from a mechanical disadvantage. I think anything that increases the ROM of the lift (close grip benching, deficit deadlifts, deep squats etc) will benefit the raw lift. Partials however I do not. Unless it's from a mechanical disadvantage and you're actually lifting LESS (example deadlifts from mid shin). Just how I feel
 
Strength is an element of power, power is an element of speed, a muscle is a muscle is a muscle, make the muscle bigger it will in turn provide the ability for the muscle to be stronger.

A few things IMHO:

1) Conventional Deadlifts have never directly strengthend my lower back...however, one must have a strong back in order to perform the conventional movement correctly and hold the spine in proper alignment.

In otherwords, the low back/lumbar musculature must be strong BEFORE one attempts to perform the conventional deadlift correctly.

This means that OTHER exercises, BESIDES the conventional deadlift must be used to strengthen this area.
Yes, conventional deadlift work the lumbar muscles isometrically, which does, to some extent, strengthen them, but it does not work these muscles through a full ROM.
No mechanical work is apparent to the lumber.

2)Many people, PT's namely, talk about using a flat back/neutral spine when doing any type of movement involving the low back.
Fine, but as I noted above, these will not strenghten these muscles through a full ROM.
You have to have a strong back in order to maintain this type of position during back extensions, good mornings, deadlifts, RDL's, & SLD's, but, as I've already said, other exercises work the lumbar musculature better, and will get one ready to perform all of the above movements with the neutral spine.

3)If you want to use a form of the deadlift to maximize low back and posterior chain involvement, then the SLD is an obvious choice, where the back is slightly rounded at the bottom.
Again, the lumbar muscles will not be working through a full ROM, but much more so than the conventional deadlift.
Also, the effect on the hamstrings, upper back, traps make the SLD "THE" movement for strenghtening the ENTIRE posterior chain.

4)In order to essentially "isolate" the low back muscles you must
(A) perform a movement which takes the hips and glutes out the movement to the greatest degree possible
(B) perform a movement that takes you through the greatest range of pain free movement possible and has you begin in a position of spinal/trunk flexion.

The MedX or kieser low back and exercise lumbar pieces will do both of these. Now, I know many on this board have never tried either of these, but these are the real deal.

5)A movement I kind of "came up with" one day which really smoked my low back is the following: use a straight bar, feet shoulder width with a "soft" knee (maintain this knee position throughout), and peform a Romanian Deadlift (keep the head up, and shove the butt back and keep a neutral spine).

Keep the bar close to the body, and go down until the bar is at mid-shin (remember, keep the neutral spine).
Once you've reached mid shin with a neutral spine, round out the back slowly until the plates touch the floor.
Now, using only the lumbar muscles, extend back up, slowly and smoothly, into the neutral spine position.
Do not come all the way erect (like when you began the set).

Once you reach neutral spine, round out again and repeat the extension. 15-20 reps. You won't need much more than the bar to start this, and your low back will be screaming after 15 reps. It is kind of an RDL, SLD, Good Morning, and back extension all rolled into one. Try it.

Andy.
 
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