wingman
Super M0derator
No i dont, the weight wasn't the question. I just figured the pulls would help your off the ground speed?
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Does Olympic weightlifting build strength?
- Thread starter 0ni
- Start date
No i dont, the weight wasn't the question. I just figured the pulls would help your off the ground speed?
Fadi
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I think you know me too well now Peter, so you'll know that what I'm about to say has no salt or pepper on it, it's plain and simple really. I would not worry about the first pull... ever! Why do I say that Pete? Please take a look at the best of the best; at the cream de la cream in the sport of Olympic weightlifting, at the most powerful weightlifter of all time in my opinion. Have you guessed yet who I'm referring to Peter?
Yes, he's none other than the Pocket Hercules himself: Naim Suleymanuglu cleaning and jerking 190kg, which was 10kg over triple bodyweight @ 60kg. This man has one of the slowest first pull of anyone I've seen, yet he, Halil Mutlu, and Pyrros Dimas (especially Pyrros) has an amazing third pull... making up for any lack of speed in the initial lift.
Weightlifters are often given exercises like cleaning / power cleaning etc from just below the knees; just above the knees, and high up on the thighs because that's where the ultimate generation of power comes from and is often lacking. I repeat, I would not lose sleep over a slow first pull.
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Fadi.
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0ni
Registered Rustler
Are you saying that maximal strength doesn't transfer over to speed/explosiveness?
I recently saw a video of klokov deadlifting 800 odd pounds for a triple with good form and I'm under the impression that if you can lift 800 with a straight back, 500 would be easy as fuck and feel light in comparison
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Fadi
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Fadi
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You quote me saying this:
then you ask me a question that does not relate to what I've said. I still stand by my comment that speed can not be maintained when the weight exceeds a certain percentage (which is usually about 10% or so over one's 1RM loverhead lift).
Now coming directly to your question re the transference of strength to speed, I have the following to say Oni:
Gaining strength would have to be one of the easiest if not the easiest element in the sport of weightlifting. However being stronger as a weightlifter does not transform or automatically equates with being a more powerful lifter (where strength is but one of several elements that go to make up an Olympic lift).
I’d just like to point out that the strongest squatters are not necessarily/usually the most powerful lifters in Olympic weightlifting. Perhaps having the strongest squat can be most beneficial in a sport that calls for a squat as part of the competition. Two sports that come to mind are the power lifting and the strong men competitions.
Antonio Krastev had a best front squat of 310kg, but could not get up with 255 and 257.5kg clean & jerks back at the 1987 Ostrava’s World Weightlifting Championships. Vasily Alexeev (the legend) on the other hand, a lifter who never squatted with more than 270kgs, had a best clean & jerk of 256kg.
At 17 years of age, I was Australian youth Champion back in the early 80s, I could squat as much if not more than the then senior Australian weightlifter in my category. But I sure as hell did not match his lifts in either the snatch or the clean and jerk. How can that be when I could very well match him with the pure strength exercise that is the squat?
Oni, I ask you according to your signature, which shows you dead lifting 182.5kg... how much can you clean and jerk based on the strength that you have lifting that 182.5kg?
Shane Hamman, whom I’m sure you’ve heard of, failed with 242.5kg clean & jerk at the Olympic Games in Athens. How can that be when this former powerlifter could squat with way over 400kg (458kg) and deadlift around the 335kg mark?
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I don't doubt that for a second, but what are you infering from that observation, I hope you're not infering that Klokov lifts what he lifts because he can deadlift 800 odd pounds. Because let me tell you, there are many lifters who are just as good as Klokov without performing any deadlifts whatsoever!
The thing here is one can do plenty of work with noting to show for it, or at least nothing to show for it where it really counts... on the Olympic weightlifting platform.
Look Oni, I'm really not here to convince you one way or the other mate. If you feel that getting as strong as can be is the way to go for lifting weights above your head like Olympic weightlifters do, then by all means carry on with that beleif. I won't interfere in the least.
All power (or strength as the case may be) to you mate.
Fadi.
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Darkoz
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0ni gets confused and still doesn't realise that a bullshitter needs to have a good memory.
And also asks questions that don't even relate to the post he quotes.
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0ni
Registered Rustler
I still stand by that comment, you should read Supertraining by Siff and Verkoshansky. It cannot be developed easily but by increasing maximal strength you can move a lighter weight faster
Ok, I am not saying that strength training is the be-all & end-all to olympic lifting. I just think that increasing maximal strength (as you said, it's one of the easiest things to do) is a great way to increase your olympic lifts.
I'd appreciate it if you could explain why max effort clean pulling (i'll call it that instead of deadlifting to imply that correct clean form is maintained, straight back and similar starting position etc) is a bad idea simply because speed/explosiveness is not maintained. If anything I'd argue that it is maintained as you can't lift a max weight slowly, despite the bar speed being slower.
Obviously there is more to it than "he who squats, presses and deadlifts the most will snatch, clean and jerk the most" because that would be silly. BUT! I think getting as strong as humanly possible is a great method to progress in the lifts. Which is why olympic lifters take steroids - not to improve their form or become more explosive but to increase their strength. Again, it shouldn't be a priority in a lot of cases but I think it should be more of a priority than it is now. A lot of nations have great competition lift by just performing them along with squats (Bulgaria for example) but I think it is unwise for someone to follow their example when it clearly isn't working for them (USA for example).
oh and just because you asked
I deadlift 182.5kg but my front squat is only 100kg and my clean form is terrible lol, but I clean pulled (high pulled?) 150kg to my belly button last week and due to my complete lack of olympic training I don't see how I can attribute that to anything but my deadlift
Fadi
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Max effort clean pulling? I am using max effort clean pulling. In fact as I've already stated, I am (was) using 10% over my 1RM lift over head.
Now just in case I'm on the wrong track here Oni, and you in fact meant max effort to imply the utilisation of the deadlift exercise, lifting an enormous weight with utter disregard to speed, then I would have something to say about that.
You said that you'd argue that despite the huge weight lifted using the dead lift, the speed of the lift is maintained! I beg to differ here with you Sir. You said that I cannot lift a max weight slowly despite the bar speed being slower! I'm confused, please explain. Look at an Olympic weightlifter powering the bar up, then look at a powerlifter lifting a weight during a dead lift with not a consideration in the world for the time factor. How can both be compared?
Let me explain to you why dead lifting a huge weight is a bad idea for an Olympic weightlifter and why it's not part of their training program. Before I do that, a quick lying down of the facts is in order.
Olympic weightlifters are interested in and concerned with one factor above all other factors. That factor is called: Power. What is power? Is it speed/explosiveness alone? No. Is it being super strong? No. What is its make up then? It's a combination of both strength as well as speed combined in a time capsule.
Power is equal to force multiplied by distance divided by time. That is to say: Power = Force x Distance/Time, or put simply: Strength x Speed = POWER.
Here's a quick copy and paste to get a little bit deeper of how the above combo works in real life:
If a strength score for an athlete was 2, and the athlete's speed score was also 2, his power rating would be: 2(speed) x 2(strength) = 4 (power).
Doubling the athletes speed without altering strength would also double his power: 4(speed) x 2(strength) = 8(power).
If the same athlete made a 50 percent gain in both speed and strength his power rating would be: 3(speed) x 3(strength) = 9 (power).
Having shared the above with you thus far, can you take a guess why I'm taking an objection with your heavy dead lifting for an athlete whose aim in his sport is power? Before I give you my answer, I'll share one more piece of information with you Sir.
To meet the requirement of that power athlete (the Olympic weightlifter), we need to focus our attention on supplying him with an exercise that would see him hit two birds with one stone. An exercise that has an intrinsic factor that allows for both speed & strength. The exercise that would fit the bill perfectly here would be the explosive pull and not the slow deadlift. After all, from a neurological point of view, an explosive movement such as the pull would serve the lifter well in stimulating his nervous system to fire more quickly and to also teach full body neural recruitment.
By performing the dead lift, the weightlifter would most certainly get super strong for sure... and super slow also. Why? Because by performing the slow and heavy dead lift, we would have violated the formula for power by taking away from it one of its crucial elements, i.e. speed.
Look Oni, I'm not asking you to agree with me, but I can assure you my friend that if I was coaching someone to lift powerfully off the floor; dead lifting would not even feature on my lifting /exercise radar. Hey, I could very well be wrong, however looking at the empirical data world-wide in the sport of Olympic weightlifting and having being at the elite level myself as an Olympic weightlifter, I am confident that there's a big chance that all of us (Olympic weightlifters) and coaches are on the right track.
Have you read what I've written about Ivan Abadjiev's action of cutting/eliminating all supplementary lifts bar three, namely the C&J, the snatch, and the front squat? Why would he do that do you think? Forget what you and I are discussing here, i.e. the deadlift or the pull; he eliminated all supplementary exercises bar the three I mentioned. I have great respect for that man, even though I don't agree with everything he implemented with his lifting squad, but that's another story for another day.
I hope that I have explained my position to you Oni. And as I've said Sir, it's your right and privilege to disagree with some or all that I've shared with you here. I respect your views Oni, irrespective whether I agree with them or not my friend.
All power to you Champ.
Fadi.
0ni
Registered Rustler
Yeah I agree with you on some points and I have read into Abadjiev's methods thoroughly (and they squatted a max to work on maximal strength often) but I disagree with your stance that increasing maximal strength doesn't increase maximal power. Maximum strength is the backbone upon which all other strength qualities lie and this is covered in the Science and Practice of Strength Training (page 156). Zat states that maximal strength is the prerequisite for high movement speed but you need to do high velocity exercises to transform this into power gains (which an olympic lifter should be doing). He states that:
"if the strength deficit is too high (more than about 50% of Fmm), heavy resistance directed towards the enhancement of maximal strength is not efficient; maximum strength gain is of no value toward increasing the velocity (power) of the motion."
So from this I think we can safely assume that anyone who exceeds 50% of their max deadlift in the pull would benefit from some direct strength training in the deadlift - which is what we are starting to notice happen with countries such as China where they strength train with minimal loading on the competition lifts until "strength is adequate" (lifthard.com) and then will keep squats and heavy deadlift/shrug combinations in once or twice a week to maintain strength while they hammer away at the other lifts
"if the strength deficit is too high (more than about 50% of Fmm), heavy resistance directed towards the enhancement of maximal strength is not efficient; maximum strength gain is of no value toward increasing the velocity (power) of the motion."
So from this I think we can safely assume that anyone who exceeds 50% of their max deadlift in the pull would benefit from some direct strength training in the deadlift - which is what we are starting to notice happen with countries such as China where they strength train with minimal loading on the competition lifts until "strength is adequate" (lifthard.com) and then will keep squats and heavy deadlift/shrug combinations in once or twice a week to maintain strength while they hammer away at the other lifts
Goosey
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Olympic lifting, along with powerlifting, footy, soccer, hockey and such are sporting events whereby the athlete needs to practice over and over the skills required to ensure that they become competent.
Strength training should always be an adjunct.
A good strength coach will identify a weakness in an individual to limmit injury on the playing field or dias and not include explosive olympic lifts.
For an interesting prospective google; the summit on ice.
Strength training should always be an adjunct.
A good strength coach will identify a weakness in an individual to limmit injury on the playing field or dias and not include explosive olympic lifts.
For an interesting prospective google; the summit on ice.
Darkoz
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Exactly.Yeah, quoting The Science and Practice of Strength Training, one of the most comprehensive strength training manuals that exist... What was I thinking!!
Stop quoting articles, stop looking for internet articles, stop over complicating everything and stop arguing with those who do more than read but have experience, especially people like Fadi who has actually been an Olympic lifter and now an accomplished bodybuilder.
Start eating, start training, start resting and start fucken listening.
0ni
Registered Rustler
No offence to Fadi but I'm 100% certain Zatsiorsky knows a hella lot more than Fadi does about this. Which is why he literally wrote the book on it