Genetic Potential and upper limits!!!!?

[vader-nator]

Hmmmm......

I know this is a taboo subject but hear me out.

Not being a quitter or anything I just want to know.

At what point do we as drug free trainers find out when we have reached ultimate genetic potential?

Looking back over 20 odd years of training diaries, power lift mode, volume mode, mentzer HIT etc etc..... I seem to reach an maximum spot and get stuck there for a couple of months......

My regular approach is to change the workout do a different one or to bulk up and cut down. More of a mental diversion though than a true honest to god increase.. I get to a certain size and cant get beyond it.

My max seems to be around about the same no matter what.

As for that stupid leg press I did, glad it's on tape because I have never been able to get back to it.

We are mortal. We do have limits. Like it or not.

Sadly I seem have a 20 year map in training journals that has peaks in all the same places regardless of training system or volume.

Not talking about fear, or self limiting pussy crap.

I know its better to dare to dream than to acknowledge limits but........ in reality this limit is also a factor.

Perhaps when I plateau I should just keep switching modes, bulk up and cut down and keep my head in the sand.

Rob

 

[NPR]

If you want to get bigger and you cant, up your eating.

If you want to get stronger and you cant, pick the correct exercises and increase your effort.

And sure we might have limits but I doubt anyone on here is even close to their genetic max on anything.

 

[The Hulk]

This situation always gets me thinking about the law of diminishing returns.
How badly do you want those extra gains and how much more will you have to do to get them.

Once you really reach a certain level, is the increased effort required (on top of what you're already doing) to keep improving, worth the minor gains?

If you are a regular guy with a life and not competing, I would think not.

 

[NPR]

Read this about motivation, goals, effort and discipline.
PTC NEWSLETTER, Issue # 99

The sky is the limit in terms of size and strength, it all comes down to how much do you want it?

But there is no gain without sacrifice, and no shortcut to any place worth going.

 

[vader-nator]

Read this about motivation, goals, effort and discipline.
PTC NEWSLETTER, Issue # 99

The sky is the limit in terms of size and strength, it all comes down to how much do you want it?

But there is no gain without sacrifice, and no shortcut to any place worth going.

That's deep but unscientific. Same logic as I am already going with.

Need more than a tough motivational pep talk here.

25 years is no short cut. I have kept daily training journals every single workout for that whole time. The journals are mapping something definite and consistent.

I don't like what I see.

I have been busting my balls every workout since mid 1985.

If your theory were correct then everyone who lifts more than you and is bigger than you just wants it more. Not so. The second I touched the iron I exploded.

There are limits. You do train better if you don't acknowledge them..... but they are still there.

 

[vader-nator]

This situation always gets me thinking about the law of diminishing returns.
How badly do you want those extra gains and how much more will you have to do to get them.

Once you really reach a certain level, is the increased effort required (on top of what you're already doing) to keep improving, worth the minor gains?

If you are a regular guy with a life and not competing, I would think not.

Dead right Hulk. Soooo much more to life!!!

 

[vader-nator]

If you want to get bigger and you cant, up your eating.

If you want to get stronger and you cant, pick the correct exercises and increase your effort.

And sure we might have limits but I doubt anyone on here is even close to their genetic max on anything.

Yep Ultimate human potential is a crazy thing. Look at people picking up cars in emergencies to save loved ones.

I knew this would be a tricky one to banter with.

Rob

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Lyle McDonald has some interesting articles about physical limits to how much muscle the (male) human frame can actually support, and anything beyond that is steroids, basically.

However, most of us are far from that physical limit, as Nick said - even those of us who have trained for some years. And if we got close to the limit, we'd look pretty impressive. For example, based on my frame, I could manage at most 5kg more muscle (I have small bone structure). But I'd look a lot better with 5kg more muscle than now!

 

[vader-nator]

Lyle McDonald has some interesting articles about physical limits to how much muscle the (male) human frame can actually support, and anything beyond that is steroids, basically.

However, most of us are far from that physical limit, as Nick said - even those of us who have trained for some years. And if we got close to the limit, we'd look pretty impressive. For example, based on my frame, I could manage at most 5kg more muscle (I have small bone structure). But I'd look a lot better with 5kg more muscle than now!

That's where I'm coming from.

Got any links?

Thanks

Rob

 

[pistachio]

This situation always gets me thinking about the law of diminishing returns.
How badly do you want those extra gains and how much more will you have to do to get them.

Once you really reach a certain level, is the increased effort required (on top of what you're already doing) to keep improving, worth the minor gains?

If you are a regular guy with a life and not competing, I would think not.

this sums up my feelings exactly. the bigger/stronger you get, the slower the gains you make will be. if the gains were linear, eventually you would be able to squat 10 tonnes.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Got any links?

Of course.

That's Casey Butt's model based on frame size. It assumes low bodyfat (about 10%). People of higher bodyfat can sustain more muscle, for example sumos have more muscle than natural bodybuilders of the same height - but if the sumo wanted to lean down, he'd lose some muscle along the way.

"In reality, it will take years of dedicated, productive training for most genetically typical trainees to even approach these predictions. Most people, including champions, will never achieve this level of development throughout all of their muscle groups - and measurements taken at higher body fat levels do not reflect true muscular development. If you reach 95% of most of these predictions - in lean condition - you will stand out in almost any gym. In fact, 95% represents good lifetime goals for most genetically typical, drug-free trainees. At a lean 90% you'd look like a fitness model."​

Frame size is pretty important. I've a friend who's the same height as me, who trains a bit, has about 15-20kg on me in weight - he just has a larger bone structure than me, I'll never be the same weight as him unless it's all fat. So I have limits, but these limits are so far from what I am now, they seem less like limits and more like distant goals.

Lyle McDonald has an article on muscular potential, too, though he doesn't speak of frame size.

"Of course, to the general public, an individual at a lean 180-190 pounds is still pretty enormous. It’s just that compared to the absurd size of a pro bodybuilder, it seems absolutely tiny."​

They're good writers, both "let's debunk the broscience" guys (eg, "you need to eat 4g protein per kg bodyweight to grow" sort of nonsense).

 

[vader-nator]

this sums up my feelings exactly. the bigger/stronger you get, the slower the gains you make will be. if the gains were linear, eventually you would be able to squat 10 tonnes.

Now where getting to the crux of where I am coming from!!!!!

Other guys.... Keep the pep talk motivational stuff for the newbies. I have bled from the mouth and from eyes being a lifter. That era is over for me. I'm not going back. Call me cryptonite infested but thats the way it is. I am over it.

So I guess case in point..... I don't want it that badly any more if that's the price. Especially when my best mass gains came from different workouts altogether.....

 

[vader-nator]

I might try the Sumo thing out.LOL

My gut is not trim at the moment but my arms are happy. Plus my arms are hard and as strong as ever.
Could snap my trim self in half like a twig.

Got any of Cartmans WeightGain 4000?

Yep when I trim down I become a greyhound. Would rather be strong and happy.

Of course.

That's Casey Butt's model based on frame size. It assumes low bodyfat (about 10%). People of higher bodyfat can sustain more muscle, for example sumos have more muscle than natural bodybuilders of the same height - but if the sumo wanted to lean down, he'd lose some muscle along the way.

"In reality, it will take years of dedicated, productive training for most genetically typical trainees to even approach these predictions. Most people, including champions, will never achieve this level of development throughout all of their muscle groups - and measurements taken at higher body fat levels do not reflect true muscular development. If you reach 95% of most of these predictions - in lean condition - you will stand out in almost any gym. In fact, 95% represents good lifetime goals for most genetically typical, drug-free trainees. At a lean 90% you'd look like a fitness model."​

Frame size is pretty important. I've a friend who's the same height as me, who trains a bit, has about 15-20kg on me in weight - he just has a larger bone structure than me, I'll never be the same weight as him unless it's all fat. So I have limits, but these limits are so far from what I am now, they seem less like limits and more like distant goals.

Lyle McDonald has an article on muscular potential, too, though he doesn't speak of frame size.

"Of course, to the general public, an individual at a lean 180-190 pounds is still pretty enormous. It’s just that compared to the absurd size of a pro bodybuilder, it seems absolutely tiny."​

They're good writers, both "let's debunk the broscience" guys (eg, "you need to eat 4g protein per kg bodyweight to grow" sort of nonsense).

 

[CaT_SPeW]

Got any of Cartmans WeightGain 4000?

BEEEEEF CAAAAAKE!!!!!!

 

[vader-nator]

BEEEEEF CAAAAAKE!!!!!!

Amen Bro!

LOL

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Pffft. This is the product that will help you SURPASS you genetic potential! It's called Armageddon!

"Skin tearing vascularity. Insane training intensity, Explosive performance gains. Mind blowing muscle pumps. Aspartame free. Lay waste to the competition with Armageddon, the most advanced and awe-inspiring hypertrophic pre-workout formula ever created. Experience immediate and noticeable increases in muscle density, hardness, and strength virtually instantaneously upon ingesting this truly remarkable compound. Users and observes alike will notice immediate and sustained massive body pumps to the absolute brink of feasibility, with dramatic python-like vascularity, and a wicked skin-thinning effect never before seen in an over-the-counter product. Armageddon represent the New World Order in advanced sports nutrition as it relates to bodybuilding and athletic performance and is the 1st and only products to date whose results can truly be described as those of Biblical proportion. Just 1 dose and you will know why Armageddon spells Judgment Day for any and all competition, and the end of the supplement world as we currently know it."​

(It's creatine and caffeine and a few amino acids thrown in for luck)

 

[Fadi]

Ok Rob, basically what you’re interested in knowing is not whether it’s about having mind over matter, since mind is not matter and intangible. So how can we know our true potential and what to ultimately expect from our genes?

Again, I’m not some genetic scientist here but would nevertheless like to have a crack at answering your profound question.

I say our first stop is to take a close and hard look at the people closest to us; mum and dad. Then proceed to venture out by looking at extended members of the family and see to what levels they have reached physically. Sure, I can almost hear you say but Fadi, I’m the only one who lifts weights in my family or distant relatives. I say have a look at the bone structure, how wide are the shoulders, how tall are you and others related to you. I would then venture out and look at the non blood related population and look for bodybuilders who match your height, your race (Anglo etc), your bone structure.

Basically what I’m saying is we need to have a close look at the empirical data available to us instead of some scientific/laboratory experiments etc. I’m 164cm with a bicep length of X cm form front delt to elbow. I’d start by looking at bodybuilders with similar basic features and go from there. Look at bodybuilders your height having similar skeleton features but who have taken steroids big time. Compare their measurements with your own. Compare their bodyweight and fat percentages. That would be the ultimate in giving you an idea of what to ultimately expect; then you begin to compromise a bit here and a bit there since you don’t take steroids.

What I’ve written so far has zero to do with mind over matter since the two (we’ve agreed) are separate entities.


Fadi.

 

[vader-nator]

As always, a good solid answer the actual question as posed.

Thanks mate.

It kind of leads me to a weird place.

Having a gift for the iron and having done a lot of old fashioned rib cage work in my teens, I am nothing like my parents or relatives in design.

Compare similar shaped dudes. There are none..... Paul Graham?

In my mid 20's I stood beside Paul Graham at an IFBB event. I have lost the photo now but I had a bigger chest than him in clothes ( I had on a business shirt ). Paul was wearing his IFBB padded jacket and was dwarfed.

There were a couple of promoters there and hench men with him. One became very cross when Paul took great interest in me and gave me 2 tickets to the night time show out of his brief case.

Paul was old school with deep chest and vacuum style rib cage.

Next to the competitors he looked like a mountain.

My friends told me that everyone wanted to know who I was.

I never explored any further relations with Mr Graham as a friend of mine went with him and took that path. I train because I love it. I stayed out of the game........ if you catch my drift.
In the 1980s and 1990s I have been mistaken for guest poser or training partner for the visiting champ at numerous full size bodybuilding events. ( in clothes)

It's hard to make a comparison with a similar body type as I sort of have an old school deep chest from the 1950s.

Anyway......

As for limits. I think I have mine mapped out. Not pleased about it but not unwilling to try and surpass them either.

Plus

How many drug free dudes can walk into the IFBB and be asked about by the boss?

The good old days!!!!

NOW FADI,

YOU ARE FORBIDDEN TO READ THIS POST.

YOU HAVE A JOB TO DO. RECORD BREAKERS NEED TO BE FULL OF DREAM POWER. NOT REALISM.

LOL

Looks like I am back to the start again.

NO LIMITS ALLOWED!!!!!!

Why put ourselves through this torture if there is a lid on it?

Enjoy the ride. Just give it 100% and make it your best.

Ok Rob, basically what you’re interested in knowing is not whether it’s about having mind over matter, since mind is not matter and intangible. So how can we know our true potential and what to ultimately expect from our genes?

Again, I’m not some genetic scientist here but would nevertheless like to have a crack at answering your profound question.

I say our first stop is to take a close and hard look at the people closest to us; mum and dad. Then proceed to venture out by looking at extended members of the family and see to what levels they have reached physically. Sure, I can almost hear you say but Fadi, I’m the only one who lifts weights in my family or distant relatives. I say have a look at the bone structure, how wide are the shoulders, how tall are you and others related to you. I would then venture out and look at the non blood related population and look for bodybuilders who match your height, your race (Anglo etc), your bone structure.

Basically what I’m saying is we need to have a close look at the empirical data available to us instead of some scientific/laboratory experiments etc. I’m 164cm with a bicep length of X cm form front delt to elbow. I’d start by looking at bodybuilders with similar basic features and go from there. Look at bodybuilders your height having similar skeleton features but who have taken steroids big time. Compare their measurements with your own. Compare their bodyweight and fat percentages. That would be the ultimate in giving you an idea of what to ultimately expect; then you begin to compromise a bit here and a bit there since you don’t take steroids.

What I’ve written so far has zero to do with mind over matter since the two (we’ve agreed) are separate entities.


Fadi.

 

[vader-nator]

Pffft. This is the product that will help you SURPASS you genetic potential! It's called Armageddon!

"Skin tearing vascularity. Insane training intensity, Explosive performance gains. Mind blowing muscle pumps. Aspartame free. Lay waste to the competition with Armageddon, the most advanced and awe-inspiring hypertrophic pre-workout formula ever created. Experience immediate and noticeable increases in muscle density, hardness, and strength virtually instantaneously upon ingesting this truly remarkable compound. Users and observes alike will notice immediate and sustained massive body pumps to the absolute brink of feasibility, with dramatic python-like vascularity, and a wicked skin-thinning effect never before seen in an over-the-counter product. Armageddon represent the New World Order in advanced sports nutrition as it relates to bodybuilding and athletic performance and is the 1st and only products to date whose results can truly be described as those of Biblical proportion. Just 1 dose and you will know why Armageddon spells Judgment Day for any and all competition, and the end of the supplement world as we currently know it."​

(It's creatine and caffeine and a few amino acids thrown in for luck)

Like the Incredible Hulk.

Man they aren't kidding with the hype.......biblical proportion indeed??

LOL

HAve you seriously had success with it? I havent used suplements since 1995 or so. I kid you not.

Rob

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Of course I have had tremendous success with this. Extensive consumption of expensive supplements, like the consumption of several kilograms of meat each day, is absolutely necessary to be able to get any results at all. Just ask those pencil-necked geek, Sandow, Hackenschmidt, Grimek, and Steve Reeves. Pussies.

Macros are important, too. Also if you don't consume a protein shake within 3 minutes of the end of your workout it was completely wasted. They work especially well in combination with split routines and BUCKETLOADS OF STEROIDS.

Honest.