Is it possible to build muscle AND lose fat at the same time?

[katie]

Hi all,

Just curious about the answer to this question.

As far as I know:
To build muscle requires a calorie excess.
To lose fat requires a calorie deficit.

Is there any way to build muscle and lose fat at the same time?

I'm asking because I pretty much want to do both things. My body type is "skinny-fat" or pear shaped, I guess - my height/weight is 164 cm and 59 kg.

I'm skinny (especially on my upper half), so I want to build more muscle and become stronger. But I still carry a bit of flab on my lower half that hasn't changed much in the past 3 months. This flab frustrates me because I know I have strong abs, and I would like to be able to see them. However I can only see them when I wake up, before breakfast, upon which they promptly leave town for the rest of the day. I know they're there but there's a layer of fat in the way!

I guess I'm a bit confused about whether to eat more and fire up that metabolism + fuel the muscle; or whether I should be watching what I'm eating, because abs are made in the kitchen, not the gym.

Thoughts?

Thanks all

 

[aminoz]

I have seen studies where, after a 12 week period, participants have experienced a net fat loss and net muscle gain. I remember one study that was presented at Filex this year by Dr Kravitz where he showed that a group of participants undergoing diet, cardio and weights experienced a phenomenal body change in just 12 weeks relative to diet/cardio or diet alone. They were untrained.

Numerous clients that have trained with me have also seen simultaneous muscle gain and fat loss over a period of 12+ weeks. This is based on bodyfat calipers and bodyweight.

But, that's over 12 weeks or more. After all, this could be 4 weeks of muscle gain and then 8 weeks of fat loss.

To have a net fat loss and muscle gain constantly is a good question though. I'm not entirely sure because I've seen conflicting information.

 

[BoyFromAus]

it is possible.
In the offseason, many bodybuilders do what's called body recomposition.
They eat at maintenance level and lift weights. The fat gets re-appropriated to muscle. I.e they're losing fat composition while gaining or maintaining muscle composition. It's a very slow process compared to a traditional bulk-cut but you do lose fat and gain muscle. It's not a simple 12 week "phase" as such. It might take a whole year to see quality results.

Some people argue the whole "you need a caloric surplus to gain and a deficit to lose". But they forget that different calories have different effects on the body.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

As far as I know:
To build muscle requires a calorie excess.
To lose fat requires a calorie deficit.

Is there any way to build muscle and lose fat at the same time?

Yes. If you consider again the month-by-month measurements I posted for January to July, you see that I gained muscle at the same time as losing fat. My chest went from 100 to 107cm and waist from 97 to 84cm.

Bodyfat measurements are imperfect and imprecise so you could argue them, but you can't argue my chest got bigger and my waist smaller. If my chest getting bigger was not muscle growth, then what was it? If my waist getting smaller was not fat loss, then where did the fat go?

But yes, to grow muscle (or fat) requires a caloric surplus, and to lose fat (or muscle) requires a caloric deficit. But... if you are more or less balanced and then add exercise, then there is a caloric deficit... where does the energy come from to keep you going? Burning your fat and/or muscles.

If you are balanced in energy in/out and do heaps of cardio, you burn both muscles and fat. If balanced and do heaps of resistance training, you burn mostly fat, and your body tries to build more muscles.

As well, remember that most of the energy a person burns is burned up just to keep them alive, keep their heart and guts and brain going, rather than to keep them lifting things or running. Part of that is muscle - a person who has more muscle has a greater "base metabolic rate". Imagine two cars idling at the traffic light, both cars are burning fuel just sitting there. But the V8 is burning heaps more than the Morris Minor, because its engine is bigger. If you build muscle up, your engine is bigger, your BMR goes up, the body has to get the energy from somewhere and so it burns fat.

If you have a diet which is keeping you at the same weight, then simply by keeping the same diet but adding resistance training, you'll grow muscle and lose fat.

Of course most people's diets aren't keeping them at the same weight but growing them, and wouldn't provide enough energy and nutrition for them to be able to manage a lot of training, and when you exercise your appetite goes up... so it's difficult to do. But it is possible - it must be possible, since I've done it.

Whether it's still possible a year or two into training I can't say. But it's certainly possible in the first year.

Of course it's much easier to build up both fat and muscle, then cut down the fat while maintaining the muscle, which is what lots of people do in bodybuilding.

 

[EdCid]

Great post there mate. Reps for you.

 

[fitnation]

Are you sure it wasn't a case of your chest and shoulders getting bigger which creates the v-taper giving you the illusion of a smaller waiste?

 

[katie]

Given the concrete measurements Kyle posted up, probably not?

 

[Kyle Aaron]

I am sure because I did girth measurements. Numbers in my gym journal thread.

Chest, 100 to 107cm
Waist, 97 to 84cm

Over six months.

He probably missed it in the mass of text

 

[fitnation]

Sorry I wasn't aware of the measurements. I would still attribute more of that to recomposition or fat loss. If you were claiming to have added 5-10 kg to your frame while decreasing your waist at the same time like many advertisements claim I would say bullshit. With your measurements it sounds more like fat loss. You sound like you were fairly solid to start out with and have trained really hard and leaned out at the same time. For a smaller built person to add significant mass they would add some fat with the muscle.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

No, I didn't claim to add 5-10kg overall. In fact, I dropped about 4kg overall.

However, my chest measurement went up. [Of course I already wrote this. Please read my posts before refuting them.]

So I did add muscle. A lot? Nope.

If you believe bodyfat calculators, either calipers or waist/neck derived calculations, then as I wrote here I went from,

Total mass, [Jan] 83.0kg --> [Jul] 77.6kg
Fat/lean, 62.4/20.6 --> 66.7/10.9, or
-9.7kg fat and
+4.3kg muscle

I lost more fat than I gained muscle, and you can quibble with the figures and say it was more or less with one or the other (I certainly don't think it's accurate to 100 grams!), but I did gain muscle.

Yes, if you began with less fat than I had it'd be harder. My pace of change has really slowed now. Nonetheless, I still believe:-

If you have a diet which is keeping you at the same weight, then simply by keeping the same diet but adding resistance training, you'll grow muscle and lose fat.

Of course it's easier to only gain muscle or only lose fat, but it is possible to do both at once. Would it be quicker and easier to do just one at a time? Usually, yes. But I think both ways are about the same for beginners, people in their first year or so of training. The body is just so shocked by exercise and diet changes that composition and strength/fitness change is rapid no matter what.

This is something that needs further study, and the benefit of many coaches' and trainers' experiences. Not many studies have even tried to do the "lose fat and gain muscle at the same time" thing, it's usually one or the other. I need to learn more, and the industry needs to study the issue more.

I hope Markos (PTC) will comment on this - my understanding is that many of his clients gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

If this formatting turns out right, it should give you the figures you'd want to see.

All the kg and cm measurements are actual. Bodyfat was calculated by the US Navy bodyfat calculator, and confirmed in January, March and July by skinfold; lean and fat masses are calculated from this. Arms are flexed measurement; that's just the way I did it first, so I have to keep doing it to be able to see trends.

	        Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul
Weight/kg	83.0	82.4	80.6	80.0	79.0	78.4	77.6
Neck/cm	        38	38	38	38	39	39	40
Chest/cm	100	100	101	103	105	107	107
Arms/cm	        31	32	33	33	34	36	37
Thighs/cm	47	49	50	50	50	50	51
Waist/cm	97	94	92	89	87	85	84
%BF	        25%	23%	22%	19%	17%	16%	14%
Fat/kg	        20.6	18.8	17.3	15.5	13.5	12.2	10.9
Lean/kg	        62.4	63.6	63.3	64.5	65.5	66.2	66.7

I lost fat and gained muscle at the same time. I lost more fat than I gained muscle, about twice as much.

PS: Just to rub in "so much for common wisdom", I had a high-carb diet, too. Until last month when I added a pre/post workout drink of 73/80/44 (half before, half after), I had daily:-
Protein, 89g
Carbs, 422g
Fat, 48g
Or in caloric contribution, 14%-68%-17%

Lost fat and gained muscle, all on a high-carb diet. Impossible, right? Maybe I should have eaten 1kg of chicken breast a day, used wraps on my chinups, and spent more time on tricep kickbacks and Swiss balls.

Eat lots of fresh fruit and vegies, nuts and beans, some meat/fish and/or dairy, lift heavy one day and go for a walk or jog the next, and sleep deep.

 

[BoyFromAus]

If this formatting turns out right, it should give you the figures you'd want to see.

All the kg and cm measurements are actual. Bodyfat was calculated by the US Navy bodyfat calculator, and confirmed in January, March and July by skinfold; lean and fat masses are calculated from this. Arms are flexed measurement; that's just the way I did it first, so I have to keep doing it to be able to see trends.

	        Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul
Weight/kg	83.0	82.4	80.6	80.0	79.0	78.4	77.6
Neck/cm	        38	38	38	38	39	39	40
Chest/cm	100	100	101	103	105	107	107
Arms/cm	        31	32	33	33	34	36	37
Thighs/cm	47	49	50	50	50	50	51
Waist/cm	97	94	92	89	87	85	84
%BF	        25%	23%	22%	19%	17%	16%	14%
Fat/kg	        20.6	18.8	17.3	15.5	13.5	12.2	10.9
Lean/kg	        62.4	63.6	63.3	64.5	65.5	66.2	66.7

I lost fat and gained muscle at the same time. I lost more fat than I gained muscle, about twice as much.

PS: Just to rub in "so much for common wisdom", I had a high-carb diet, too. Until last month when I added a pre/post workout drink of 73/80/44 (half before, half after), I had daily:-
Protein, 89g
Carbs, 422g
Fat, 48g
Or in caloric contribution, 14%-68%-17%

Lost fat and gained muscle, all on a high-carb diet. Impossible, right? Maybe I should have eaten 1kg of chicken breast a day, used wraps on my chinups, and spent more time on tricep kickbacks and Swiss balls.

Eat lots of fresh fruit and vegies, nuts and beans, some meat/fish and/or dairy, lift heavy one day and go for a walk or jog the next, and sleep deep.

wow,...... i think i've gotten brain hemorrhage now..

but overall were u at maintenance, surplus or deficit.. calorie wise ?

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Those numbers were for fitnation, the Doubting Thomas

I don't think they're that useful, really, except to show the general trend of things, and in case you get someone tell you, "no, that never happened, it's impossible, something else must have happened instead."

In the end all you need to know is - waist smaller, chest bigger, for a bloke that means "lost fat, gained muscle."

I have no idea if I was at caloric deficit or surplus. I didn't weigh things daily and calculate calories.

I just cut out junk food and booze, ate lots of fresh fruit and vegies, nuts and beans, some meat/fish (not much, about 200g a week) and dairy, and bread, rice and pasta with it, too. When I was hungry I ate more fresh fruit and vegies, nuts and beans. When I wasn't I didn't.

In 2008 I'd eaten good food as above, but junk on top of it, and was slowly becoming fatter - like 4kg of fat a year or something. So in cutting out the junk I dropped calories, and in adding in exercise I expended more. Most likely I had a slight caloric deficit overall, but it's hard to say because as I said when I was hungry I ate more.

Calorie-counting is for advanced athletes and for people who want an excuse to cheat. "Well I can squeeze in a Mars bar and make my week's totals still." Bugger all that messing about. Just get a good healthy diet (not fad nonsense) and stick to it.

 

[PTC]

This may end up being a long post, so buckle in.

Firstly, novices will all experience muscle growth when they begin lifting. Clean up your diet, bingo, muscle gain and fat loss. Too easy. Probably explains Kyle, though I'm not sure how long he's been training, going by his lifts I imagine a few months only. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

But what about someone with over 1-2 years lifting? How does he eat enough to build muscle while burning enough calories to burn fat? Protein.

Of the protein calories you eat, 30% of them are used in digesting that protein, only 8% for carbs and 5% for fat from memory.

So, start with a high protein diet, around 65% of total calories.

Secondly, nutrient timing. Huge ammounts of protein and calories upon waking and straight after lifting. These calories will be utilized rather than stored.

Very few carbs after mid afternoon, keep the protein lean.

So if you ate above maintenance, but it was mostly protein and you ate the bulk of your calories as stated, you should not be storing any more fat.

Thats the easy shit. Here is the hard stuff.

Most people I see lift dont understand what is required to trigger muscle growth. Simply doing a set to what you feel may be failure will not be enough.

Before ANY muscle growth can occur, there needs to be a reason for it, a trigger. The body DOES NOT WANT TO CHANGE.

The bodys role is to keep the status quo, to keep you alive. You need to FORCE it to grow. Half assed workouts using machines and the such do not tax the body.

Remember, you are trying to do what some feel is impossible, grow and shrink at the same time.

While it can be done, it is a slow and tedious way of doing it, and without drugs can be nearly impossible. Very few lifters can generate the intensity to grow on limited calories week in and week out.

Pro bodybuilders lose a stack of muscle in the 12 week dieting phase leading up to a comp. They look much bigger on stage, but they are smaller. Arnold weighed 107kg at his peak. He looked positively massive on stage.

My advice Katie is to make sure your actually building muscle now. By your own description, it doesnt sound like it. So what makes you think you can do that on less calories?

Also, throw your calipers, tapes and scales in the bin, invest in a full length mirror.

Anyone wanting to state they have done blah blah blah, post up before and after pics.

Measure gym progress in your journal and body recomposition in your camera.

 

[fitnation]

Those results simply confirm what I was on about. There is no need to be so anal. The first 3-4 months are when you achieve your optimum changes in body composition. Sure you can improve other aspects of your fitness afterwards. I have been into fitness for over 20 years and have a pretty damned good idea I know what I am talking about. Adding mass while cutting up is bullshit it is simply the way it is worded. Bodybuilders are either in two phase of there training anabolic, which is growing muscle or catabolic which is cutting up, hence there metabolisms are often very ****ed up.

 

[katie]

Those results simply confirm what I was on about. There is no need to be so anal. The first 3-4 months are when you achieve your optimum changes in body composition. Sure you can improve other aspects of your fitness afterwards. I have been into fitness for over 20 years and have a pretty damned good idea I know what I am talking about. Adding mass while cutting up is bullshit it is simply the way it is worded. Bodybuilders are either in two phase of there training anabolic, which is growing muscle or catabolic which is cutting up, hence there metabolisms are often very ****ed up.

Fitnation, while I'm sure you have 20 years of experience, I'm still not sure of the point you're trying to get across.

- You say that adding mass while cutting is bulls***, then you say that bodybuilders who are either gaining or cutting have messed up metabolisms?

- Kyle's detailed measurements and BF% suggests that he gained muscle and lost fat, which firstly you disagreed with (earlier post) and then later said the results confirmed your theory? Your theory of what, exactly?

I'm lost here (is it just me?)

Anyway, moving along, Thanks Markos for your incredibly clear and helpful post. I really do need to take pics. Though, surely, measurements using a tape measure must still be helpful if you look at them over a large period of time (eg. months)?

 

[PTC]

Fitnation is spot on with his observations. Novices make the best gains. You cant ever replicate what you achieve from when you first start.

Remeber your body will either be in an anabolic or catabolic state, depending on whether you are in a positive or negative nitrogen balance, and whether you have had enough fats. Fats are very anabolic. Thats why pros, those that know much more than us, go through bulking cycles. They actually take more drugs during a cutting phase than a bulking one.

Food is the most anabolic substance available to us. Use it properly and this shit is easy. Learning and understanding how the body works is the tricky part, most will simply stop lifting long before they get it.

Train to get strong, eat to get leaner or heavier.

The best thing you could do is to do 5-6 basic lifts, 3 times per week, eat a diet thats clean with no processed carbs, slightly above maintenance level, and do cardio sessions which tax your muscles as well as your heart and lungs.

Tabata Thrusters are best for this.

Squat
Bench
Press
Deadlift
Clean

Three times a week, 3-4 sets, 5-8 reps

 

[katie]

Yes Markos. I'm going to do this.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Firstly, novices will all experience muscle growth when they begin lifting. Clean up your diet, bingo, muscle gain and fat loss. Too easy. Probably explains Kyle, though I'm not sure how long he's been training, going by his lifts I imagine a few months only. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

No, you're right. I started general physical preparation in January, and lifting properly in May. I had training earlier in life, but that was 12-15 years ago, I don't know how much credit you give to "muscle memory", so I am a "true" novice? Dunno. But anyway, there it is - was untrained for years, physically active but not lifting or going for runs. So... pretty much a novice.

That's why I said upthread,

Of course it's easier to only gain muscle or only lose fat, but it is possible to do both at once. Would it be quicker and easier to do just one at a time? Usually, yes. But I think both ways are about the same for beginners, people in their first year or so of training. The body is just so shocked by exercise and diet changes that composition and strength/fitness change is rapid no matter what.

What strength training novices can achieve does not apply to all, of course. But it applies to Keen Katie, who was the one asking the question, can she gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. Yes, she can, because she is a strength training novice. Can everyone? No. But she can, as can any novice.

Thanks Markos for the long post and passing on your experience.

 

[fitnation]

That's right PTC, keeping it simple by mastering a few exercises is important. I think fitness is becoming too complicated and scientific. Another issue is that gyms in resent years are becoming less and less hardcore to the point where they are almost advocating mediocrity. I was on a Dragon Door thread and it was titled what has happened to gym? The owner of the gym where I train is an ex-army elite forces soldier and is himself a highly ranked state strongman, he is really on to it about fitness. This is rear as many gyms have become almost watered down versions of what was around a few years ago where the majority of people training in gyms were either bodybuilders, powerlifter, weight lifters or more dedicated gym junkies. Because more and more people are hitting the gym it is becoming more mainstream which is great, what is happening is that serious fitness trainers or anyone training to a respectable level of fitness are becoming rearer and rearer.