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Is Starting Strength or a split going to build most muscle for 15mnths trainee?

steak55

steak55

Banned
I've been lifting since November 09. Been on Fadi's "Move your body through space" routine ( http://ausbb.com/bodybuilding-train...move-your-body-through-space-program-1-a.html ) for a while.

My goal is just bodybuilding. Should I do Starting Strength or what?

I'm 5"9 and 77kgs, my last effort in the gym:

squat 4x5 80kgs
pull ups 2x7 5kgs
chin ups 2x5 5kgs
DB bench press 3x7 60kgs
deadlift 3x5 100kgs
DB overhead press 3x7 40kgs
dips 2x7 20kgs


Not impressive stats but trying not to BS you all..
http://ausbb.com/bodybuilding-train...move-your-body-through-space-program-1-a.html
 
My only goal is to be as close to 90kgs as possible by the end of the year at a similar BF% to what I am now. I've got the diet down though so just need to suss what is going to be the most effective training..
 
Do the beginner program by PTC or starting strength what ever you prefer. Work at getting heaps stronger.
 
How long have you been on Fadi's program. Too many people change their program before it has time to work.
 
You've been lifting since nov 09 and your best squat is 80 x 4 x 4?

I understand that your more interested in size than strength.

Why are you dropping Fadi's workout? Is your diet posted here? There's an old saying that goes 'if you think your diet is good enough, it isn't.
 
You should continue with a routine for so long as it's getting you results. Your body changes because it's told to by the weights. If you have been squatting 80kg and keep squatting 80kg, you are telling your body, "hey, stay the same." If you start squatting 85kg, your message is, "mate, you've got to change."

The weights lifted tell the body to change, whether it can change or not depends on your diet. If you eat 3 KFC buckets for dinner, you are not going to get smaller. If you eat a stick of celery and bowl of rice a day, you are not going to get bigger. Lifting weights without eating plenty of good food is like getting all the workmen to the construction site, giving them the plans, but then not sending them any bricks or timber. You end up with a lot of blokes on a long smoko, and nothing built.

Strength is built in the gym, size is built at the dinner table. To get bigger, eat more good food. It can be physically difficult to eat enough, which is why Eugene Sandow invented milk and eggs.
 
Hirdy said:
Really Kyle?

I thought muscles got torn in the gym and then repaired themselves and got stronger after you worked out?

Please exaplin...
Click to expand...
The exact mechanism of muscle growth, whether they're "torn up" or what, is not yet known with certainty. We don't even know exactly what causes DOMS.

We do know that many initial strength gains are neuromuscular, that is the person is learning the technique. The person who goes from 2 pushups to 20 has not increased their muscle mass 10 times, they've just learned to use the muscles they already have.

Whether the muscles are "torn up" or whatever in the gym does not really matter. It is definitely true that you will not get stronger unless you challenge your strength, as we do in the gym - but could do in our work, etc. It is definitely true that if you do not eat you will not become bigger. Nobody became stronger without challenging their strength, nobody became bigger without eating more.

We can theorise about the physiology of it, and argue over the details, but in practice what it comes down to is,

strength is built in the gym, size is built at the dinner table.
 
why change your routine? it uses basically the same lifts as most programs. If your not getting results its not the routines fault. Either train harder or eat more.
 
Kyle Aaron said:
The exact mechanism of muscle growth, whether they're "torn up" or what, is not yet known with certainty. We don't even know exactly what causes DOMS.

We do know that many initial strength gains are neuromuscular, that is the person is learning the technique. The person who goes from 2 pushups to 20 has not increased their muscle mass 10 times, they've just learned to use the muscles they already have.

Whether the muscles are "torn up" or whatever in the gym does not really matter. It is definitely true that you will not get stronger unless you challenge your strength, as we do in the gym - but could do in our work, etc. It is definitely true that if you do not eat you will not become bigger. Nobody became stronger without challenging their strength, nobody became bigger without eating more.

We can theorise about the physiology of it, and argue over the details, but in practice what it comes down to is,

strength is built in the gym, size is built at the dinner table.
Click to expand...

Okay, thanks for clearing that up.

I feel a lot of wannabe guru's like to make bold, over simplistic statements that sound cool but have no substance behind them. :)
 
Honest opinion?

You're big enough and strong enough to move onto a bodybuilding split. It will simply give you the biggest lean mass gains in the shortest amount of time.

That doesn't mean stop lifting heavy or stop using compound lifts. You can't suddenly start doing curls and calf raises five times a week. Keep some element of strength progression in your program - whether it's more reps with the same weight or more weight each week.

In addition i'd say you're going to struggle to add 13kg of lean muscle in 12 months. Indicates your diet isn't right if you're 77kg. Gotta eat HEAPS to grow, especially if it's clean.
 
This question about what dictum; which system works? Will it work for me?
I'm going to say this as this is my general feeling...And why I lean towards a minimalist approach.

It does not really matter, it all works.

Just lift and don't miss workouts.

I've seen people get great results with all sorts of routines because they were dedicated and were able to put together a string of 100 workouts or so without any missed training sessions.

The main thing is don't miss workouts.

On days you feel great do more if you want.

On days you feel tired do less but don't miss the workout.

TRY to do a horizontal and vertical push and pull, a major leg movement, abs, neck grip etc in every workout but like I said its instinctive.

If you are tired, just do a push, a pull and a leg movement but still train.

Try to not make it so complicated.

I think you know what to do.

Believe in yourself and follow your instincts and what you've learned from your training log. Remember, the only absolute in strength training is: Progressive Lifting + Good Nutrition + Adequate Recovery = RESULTS!

One set to fatigue can work great and long term.

Its one of the many ways that I say work, Its the most time efficient method.

But many people don't work hard enough to make it work.

I would have most of my clients do 2 work sets to be sure.

I have known some who "understand" how to do one set to failure and they really know hard to work so they can do the one set to failure.

Its not "better" just more time efficient.

If you do it right and are not a competitive lifter (where you need to do several warm up sets to train for a max single lift) it works fine and is all you need.
I would not advise this for most younger beginners.
I think young beginners need to pay their dues and build a soild foundation and a few more sets and a little longer workout probably helps them with motor learning and confidence.
 
I don't see how 4 x 5 @ 80kg squats are acceptable whether you're a bodybuilder, fitness model, sportsmen, or someone remotely interested in being fit/muscular.

You need to stick with a program (Fadi's should be fine) but not kid yourself and put some weight on the bar. As Kyle says, your body will adapt, you have to force it.
Add another plate to the bar and lift it...

I know sfa about dieting but post it up and the guys can provide some feedback.

Good luck mate!
 
Silverback said:
This question about what dictum; which system works? Will it work for me?
I'm going to say this as this is my general feeling...And why I lean towards a minimalist approach.

It does not really matter, it all works.

Just lift and don't miss workouts.

I've seen people get great results with all sorts of routines because they were dedicated and were able to put together a string of 100 workouts or so without any missed training sessions.

The main thing is don't miss workouts.

On days you feel great do more if you want.

On days you feel tired do less but don't miss the workout.

TRY to do a horizontal and vertical push and pull, a major leg movement, abs, neck grip etc in every workout but like I said its instinctive.

If you are tired, just do a push, a pull and a leg movement but still train.

Try to not make it so complicated.

I think you know what to do.

Believe in yourself and follow your instincts and what you've learned from your training log. Remember, the only absolute in strength training is: Progressive Lifting + Good Nutrition + Adequate Recovery = RESULTS!

One set to fatigue can work great and long term.

Its one of the many ways that I say work, Its the most time efficient method.

But many people don't work hard enough to make it work.

I would have most of my clients do 2 work sets to be sure.

I have known some who "understand" how to do one set to failure and they really know hard to work so they can do the one set to failure.

Its not "better" just more time efficient.

If you do it right and are not a competitive lifter (where you need to do several warm up sets to train for a max single lift) it works fine and is all you need.
I would not advise this for most younger beginners.
I think young beginners need to pay their dues and build a soild foundation and a few more sets and a little longer workout probably helps them with motor learning and confidence.
Click to expand...

I can't agree with this.

There's a reason bodybuilders train like bodybuilders and powerlifters train like powerlifters. Different programs produce vastly different results.
 
Silverback said:
Please elucidate, what can't you agree with?
Click to expand...

That 'everything works'. You're essentially refuting one of the elements of exercise - Specificity.

Different methods of training produce different results. I realise you're not an idiot but there is a reason Markos for example trains his clients one way, and a bodybuilding coach trains his clients another way.

I'm all for simplicity and consistency - in fact they're also the two things I think are most important for most trainees. But beyond those two things your basic rep range, exercise selection and workload, number of days training etc are extremely important if you want to see a specific effect.
 
Here we go, another bodybuilding vs powerlifting thread. Let the shit fly!!!

Do PTC's beginner program. Don't be fooled by the title, its pretty hard, you will be dripping by the end of it.
 
El Freako said:
Why are you quitting Fadi's program?
Click to expand...

BigJim said:
How long have you been on Fadi's program. Too many people change their program before it has time to work.
Click to expand...

about 14 weeks on Fadi's program, I had good results on it but they've slowed down.

PowerBuilder said:
You've been lifting since nov 09 and your best squat is 80 x 4 x 4?

I understand that your more interested in size than strength.

Why are you dropping Fadi's workout? Is your diet posted here? There's an old saying that goes 'if you think your diet is good enough, it isn't.
Click to expand...

I've stopped progressing on it as he dictates (should be adding reps on exercises but I can't). Maybe I should just deload and continue on Fadi's routine?

Is Fadi's routine better for bodybuilding?

Also 4x5 @ 80kgs sn't my best squat but it's what I did and it was pretty taxing for me. I recently read Rip's explanation of how to properly squat in SS and have been working on squatting with good form.

aussieBaller said:
Very true. Being 77kg shows that it isn't the greatest.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I was 65kg a bit over a year ago, my diet is good. Looks like this every day:

1. 60g oats, 125g cottage cheese, 30g wpc, 15g almonds, 125mills milk, 10g psyllium husk, banana - p55-c80-f17
2. half nandos chicken w/ no skin, salad, bread roll - p40, c70, f15
3. apple/banana + wpc + milk OR tuna/milk and wpc + toast etc - p45, c70, f5
4. dinner meal - steak, beef mince, chicken, salmon, tuna etc for protein and pasta, bread, potato etc for carbs- p35-c70-f10
5. 60g oats, 125g cottage cheese, 30g wpc, 15g almonds, 125mills milk, 10g psyllium husk, banana p55-c80-f17

+ I drink about 500mils-1L of whole milk a day.

On workout days I have an extra smoothie before gym with banana, oats, wpi (45 minutes before) and have 50g wpi and 60g dextrose immediately after. I drop one of the middle meals though (the apple or tuna one usually).
 
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