[Article] Shoulder Health

[Bazza20]

If you read any of Rippetoes work you will know he is an advocate for the overhead press improving the health of shoulders and that people dropping the press in favor of benching is causing shoulder issues.

Now I see a T-Nation article by Defranco saying that pretty much everyone should ditch the press to save there shoulders.

One thing pretty much everyone agrees on is plenty of upper back work will help.

What are peoples thought on this?

 

[cunniff1981]

I do agree with Riptoe on this.
I wrecked my shoulders benching. Had so many issues after, but since only overhead pressing and working upper back I have no issues and now push press way more than I benched.
I think benching restricts the movement of your scapulars from laying on the bench and that causes issue like impingment and the like.

I would never get anyone to bench unless they where after competing in powerlifting. I think that you can get away with out it.

 

[Goosey]

For a long time, at least twenty years, seems like shoulder injuries and lifting weights go pretty much hand in hand. The bench press usually gets the blame yet some authorities insist overhead lifting is harder on the shoulders than bench pressing. The lab coat types will doubtless argue this to a draw

 

[strong enough?]

IMO it depends on how you overhead press.

If I press the way Rippetoe describes in SS, with a slightly wider grip (just outside shoulder), bar to the throat, elevated chest, pausing every rep, elevated shoulder blades and shrugged traps at lockout, then I feel the initial drive coming from my upper back, and I definitely feel my shoulder stabilisers being worked hard - in particular teres and lower traps.

If you press narrow with the bar out in front, bodybuilder style then it becomes a much more focussed anterior delt/chest exercise.

like cuniff, I feel so much better after re-incorporating overhead pressing and my posture has improved too.

Not a big fan of defranco's work to be honest.

 

[Dancelot]

I trust Bill Starr and Mark Rippetoe over Defranco.

I feel a lot better wrt shoulders doing overhead pressing and upperback work twice a week, as Bill Starr prescribed.

 

[dicko10]

My shoulders never hurt after shoulder press but that hurt sometimes during/after bench.
My way of thinking is if you want a strong/healthy back, do deads/rows, a strong/healthy legs squat, don't avoid exercises that build these areas.
I've been lucky to never have an injury though.

 

[strong enough?]

Not all upper back exercises are created equal. It's not simple a matter of using the old bodybuilder logic of doing a pulling exercise for every push. For example, a horizontal row is not the opposite of bench press when it comes to shoulder health, as this article by Bill Hartman and Mike Robertson points out: Screw The Rotator Cuff by Bill Hartman and Mike Robertson | Enhanced Fitness and Performance

When they talk about training the upward rotation of the shoulder blades, overhead pressing trains this very well, particularly if you lockout like an olympic lifter (active traps). This is the area I, like many people who sit at a desk all day, am pissweak in.

 

[Goosey]

An unbalanced shoulder will probably before long be an unhealthy shoulder and that will hold you back in any sport, bodybuilding, powerlifting, everything.

Sometime around the late 90’s functional training became the order of the day with organization like Dragon Door and Crossfit. They looked to remold the ideal masculine physique or at least turn the clock back on what the ideal was. One of the first things thrown out along with the baby was the bench press. All of a sudden pencil necks became authorities on strength. The bench press is overrated and non functional was their rallying cry. Occasionally they would honestly admit that they “sucked in the bench” but that no longer mattered since what really mattered was the over head press when it came to upper body strength. Of course the pull-up was also included but I’ll save that for another time.

 

[The Hamburgler]

Not all upper back exercises are created equal. It's not simple a matter of using the old bodybuilder logic of doing a pulling exercise for every push. For example, a horizontal row is not the opposite of bench press when it comes to shoulder health, as this article by Bill Hartman and Mike Robertson points out: Screw The Rotator Cuff by Bill Hartman and Mike Robertson | Enhanced Fitness and Performance

When they talk about training the upward rotation of the shoulder blades, overhead pressing trains this very well, particularly if you lockout like an olympic lifter (active traps). This is the area I, like many people who sit at a desk all day, am pissweak in.

Nice article.

I actually find that o/h pressing 'hurts' my shoulders more than benching.
Push ups are the worst though, unless I get my hand position/angles right

 

[GHOSTrun]

Thing is though who presses more overhead then on flatbench? pretty much noone, so isn't it logical that of course bench press is going to attribute more to shoulder injury simply because you're using a lot more weight then you'll ever press overhead?

 

[The Hamburgler]

I suppose it depends on where people get their "sample population" from
If it's predominantly the people that only train chest and bis they're more likely to encounter people with shoulder problems from postural issues as well as guys trying to be macho and push too much weight
I kinda get where DeFranco is coming from as the typical shoulder press puts you in the impingement position - which for some people is a big no no
I encountered a video where some guy explained that you require a certain amount of shoulder flexibility before you should be pressing overhead. Dunno how legit it is but I'll hunt it up when I get home tonight

 

[DKD]

I notice that there have been a few members join recently aged around late 30s or 40s. To these blokes (the ones that are new to weights), I can't emphasize enough how important it is to look after your shoulders, and how easy it is to fuck them up.

I'm still a novice at this game, been doing it just over a year. I got quite bad shoulder impingement about 6 weeks or so after I started. I did internal/external dumbbell rotations at the start of every workout to strengthen the rotator cuff. This seemed to work well for a while, but the pain returned eventually. I had an MRI done last week and I've got a tear of the labrum. Physio calls it a 'frozen shoulder'. I can't lift my left shoulder 100% vertical, just trying is very painful.

My layman's advice for the mature newbie is to question if you need to do bench press. If you're not looking to get into powerlifting, there are probably safer ways to work the chest, like chest dips and flys. My personal experience is that the bench press, rather than OH press is what rooted my shoulder. I'm hoping to return to bench press one day, but I'll do it with dumbbells at the 10-12 rep range, maybe 8-10 once I'm confident shoulder is good.

 

[Goosey]

Thing is though who presses more overhead then on flatbench? pretty much noone, so isn't it logical that of course bench press is going to attribute more to shoulder injury simply because you're using a lot more weight then you'll ever press overhead?

This is the problem.

The press and the bench are two different exercises as with the wide grip lat pull versus the narrow grip pull-up the rom of motion is significantly different.

The exercise with less rom will enable one to move more.

As I stated the baby was thrown out with the bath, we need balance.

The purpose of "exercise" is to strengthen the targeted muscle through it's full rom which in turn produces an increase in the muscles flexibility.

 

[PTC]

Thing is though who presses more overhead then on flatbench? pretty much noone, so isn't it logical that of course bench press is going to attribute more to shoulder injury simply because you're using a lot more weight then you'll ever press overhead?

Max 120kg overhead, 110kg x 2 bench press

 

[GHOSTrun]

Max 120kg overhead, 110kg x 2 bench press

BIG difference between strict pressing it and jerking/pp it.

I am talking about strict pressing, not jerking or push pressing.

What's his MP, 70..80kg? that's 30kg less than his bench, which is what I mean...

 

[PTC]

Nowhere on here has anyone mentioned a strict press.

The amount of lifters I have see strict press a weight heavy enough to damage a girl scout I could count on one hand.

I take it as overheads, because a 60kg MP isnt doing damage to a man, period.

Please correct me if I am wrong

 

[PTC]

I should add, if in fact we are talking about sub 70kg MP causing this damage, choose another sport

 

[Dancelot]

Debate settled.

 

[Bazza20]

I should add, if in fact we are talking about sub 70kg MP causing this damage, choose another sport

Agreed totally. Personally I have never had pain from MP.

Fair few strong blokes here surely more than a few can MP over 70.

 

[Goosey]

When I mentioned press, it is a press done with a barbell over head... Upper arms starting from the side of the torso, bar resting on the top of the floppers fininshing over head.

For rep's, not this one RM rubbish.