zyzz hahahahahah fuck,,

[Kyle Aaron]

Lyle is a nutritionist. Lyle is a nutritionist. Lyle is a nutritionist.

Yes.

But he claims to have trained people in the past and still offers opinions on training, and on realistic results to be expected from training. These opinions have been demonstrated to be wrong, wrong, wrong. To which he responds by going "la la la I can't hear you! Fuck you, Mark!"

 

[Dancelot]

We know, Oli, but he was arguing about training, so he deserved everything he got.

 

[Oli]

Yes.

But he claims to have trained people in the past and still offers opinions on training, and on realistic results to be expected from training. These opinions have been demonstrated to be wrong, wrong, wrong. To which he responds by going "la la la I can't hear you! Fuck you, Mark!"

I know. But I wouldn't go to Mark for nutritional advice in the same way I wouldn't go to Lyle for training. Both have views on one or the other but their knowledge of the other area is limited.

As for the argument Lyle fucked up on the strength aspect, but he sure as hell got zach's bodyfat percentage (20%+) correct. As Lyle said its going to come back to bite the kid in the ass.

People keep digging up stupid e-fights. I've spoke to Lyle and when it comes to nutrition he can get you lean/healthy without Johnny Pain carb fairy voodoo. He's no strength coach though Rip is. Why not just go to Mark for training and Lyle for nutrition and have the best of both worlds rather than e-bitching and using neither? (not saying you are kyle, but a lot of people on this board seem to have a bizarre grudge against Lyle).

 

[Spritcha]

Look Lyle made a boo boo. Fair enough, he was a fairly shit powerlifter and was out of his league.

Lyle's books however are well researched and suggest some very practical approaches to diet, far from the 'no carbs at night to stop the carb fairies' bs the John Pain guy puts out.

On lifting I go to:
Training = Rippetoe, Wendler
Nutrition = Aragon, and to a lesser extent McDonald.

Ok- I'm an ignorant asshole- but just wondering- as far as powerlifting goes- what elite lifters have trained under Rippetoe or Wendler? Honest question- I ask because I have heard some elite lifters say they are full of shit.

 

[leachy]

Ok- I'm an ignorant asshole- but just wondering- as far as powerlifting goes- what elite lifters have trained under Rippetoe or Wendler? Honest question- I ask because I have heard some elite lifters say they are full of shit.

Well Wendler has performed to a pretty high level. Don't know about coaching...

 

[Oli]

Ok- I'm an ignorant asshole- but just wondering- as far as powerlifting goes- what elite lifters have trained under Rippetoe or Wendler? Honest question- I ask because I have heard some elite lifters say they are full of shit.

None really. Mark has a 1650 total in the 220 class however, and the best I've seen of McDonald was a pic of him deadlifting with 4 reds on the bar.

Curious, whats not to like about Mark?

 

[Kyle Aaron]

So far as I know, no elite lifters have trained under Rippetoe. I wouldn't have a clue about Wendler.

But that's not how Rip presents himself. That's the difference between Rip and Lyle: Lyle presents himself as a training expert, Rip doesn't present himself as a nutritional expert. Not knowing stuff is fine. Shit, most of us are ignorant about 99% of the stuff there is to know out there. It's presenting yourself as an expert when really you have no clue that's the issue.

Rippetoe doesn't claim to have produced elite lifters. He claims to be able to help ordinary people go from "untrained novice" to "intermediate" or thereabouts in a reasonably quick and efficient fashion with minimal risk of injury.

Some "elite lifters" may say Rip's full of shit. My experience is that many people at the top of a profession or hobby (not merely lifting) forget that what works for them at the top isn't what works for people at the bottom or in the middle. That's why you get all these advanced bodybuilding routines being tossed out for novices, 8 different types of curls for a kid who can't do a single chinup, brilliant. They've forgotten what it was to be a beginner.

When the "elite lifters" say Rip is full of shit, I would ask them how many times they've taken someone who started out doing 3 knee pushups or struggling to squat the bar, and over months or years turned them into someone who could squat or deadlift twice their bodyweight. Because that's what Rip certainly has done.

Results count, always. But results count in coaching, too.

Sometimes you get coaches of "elite lifters" who when they first met their lifters, they were already strong. But there's a big difference between coaching someone from beginner to intermediate, compared to intermediate or advanced to elite. Different skillsets, different approaches needed.

There's also a difference between performing at an elite level and being able to coach others to perform reasonably well, especially when those others are coming from being complete novices.

So ask your buddies about their coaching experiences. Results count. And how a person presents themselves counts, too. Lyle presents himself as a nutrition and training expert. At least one of those is bullshit. Rip presents himself just as an expert in training novices and nothing more; judging by results, he's right.

At their recent "coaches' roundtable" events you can see that Rip is good mates with Dave Tate. I can imagine that after the person got to something like a 200kg squat, Rip would pass them on to Dave Tate.

 

[Spritcha]

I agree results count- thats why I asked what elite lifters they have coached. If taking new lifters under their wing and helping them squat a bar or whatever is the way we judge their coaching then fine- but it remains to be seen whether they can coach someone to an elite level.
I should have qualified my statement and question. It was a genuine question and I understand both coaches have considerable influence and are widely respected. Nevertheless- have they actually produced results in terms of elite lifters?
Of the two elite lifters I have in mind- both are world ranked and both have coached athletes to elite levels.
My understanding is that both Wendler and Rip are average athletes at best- at least in terms of powerlifts- I was wondering whether their coaching credentials actually included coaching elite powerlifters primarily because I have heard that their systems are aimed at beginners and hobby lifters- and yet so many people go on about their systems as if they are something special. I'm not saying helping novices isn't important- but lets face it- getting an inactive person to do just about anything with safe form is going to yield results. They may offer fairly good systems for beginners- but they both have serious followings and sometimes the followers make them out to be something more than trainers of beginners.
I'm not into starting a shit fight- but a comment I heard from a coach was if you want to get strong at powerlifts there are better ways of doing it.
I only bring this up because, with no background knowledge of this debate between McDonald and Rip, I am interested to see some many Rip supporters attacking McDonald for his lack of athletic results.

 

[leachy]

Wow, I have a long way to go just to be average.

Wendlers best = 1000lbs squat, 675lb bench, 700lb deadlift.

 

[Spritcha]

Wow, I have a long way to go just to be average.

Wendlers best = 1000lbs squat, 675lb bench, 700lb deadlift.

multiply on the gas- its ok- but not amazing. Recently he squatted in just wraps- I believe his best was less than 700lbs. No bad, but not amazing at all. I know that compared with the average gym goer those numbers are awesome- but in the world of powerlifting competition it doesn't really entitle one to fame.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Asking if they've trained elite lifters is like asking if your local primary school teacher has taught any PhDs.

That's not their job, they're there to get people started. Except in this analogy, strength training and primary school, it's like it's the 19th century when most people didn't finish grade 6. In a world of illiterates, successfully teaching basic literacy is pretty remarkable.

"What?! Rip never coached any elite lifters? Well obviously he is a crap coach, then!"
"What?! Mrs Jones never taught any PhDs? Well obviously she is a crap teacher, then!"

Spritcha, I think you are falling into that trap I mentioned, being so advanced that you forget just what is needed for beginners, and how important it is to have a good coach when you start. This is a world where if a 59kg guy gets to 65kg and squatting 75kg and deadlifting 110kg in 10 weeks, then qualified trainers will seriously suggest he must be on steroids.

When it comes to coaching, Rip doesn't present himself as anything more than he is. He has a lot of stupid ideas (eg he doesn't believe in global warming), but his ideas about training beginners are not among them. His advice is, for beginners, solid - and works.

 

[Oli]

Neither really specialise in coaching elite lifters. Rippetoe primarily works with novices and Wendler is a strength coach for football teams and for people with time constraints. Many have got to 500/400/600+ totals with their works though, which is imo pretty impressive.

If I were competing in powerlifting I'd probably look at the Shieko stuff when I get to the higher levels. However, whilst I plan to do some meets powerlifting isn't my only priority and with my lifts/time constraints Rippetoe and Wendler make for great coaches.

 

[Sherro]

multiply on the gas- its ok- but not amazing. Recently he squatted in just wraps- I believe his best was less than 700lbs. No bad, but not amazing at all. I know that compared with the average gym goer those numbers are awesome- but in the world of powerlifting competition it doesn't really entitle one to fame.

I don't think Wendler has coached any elite lifters. He spent a fair amount of time under Louie @ Westside and then under Tate & Co @ EFS. 5/3/1 was never designed as a powerlifting program. It came about because Wendler had reached his powerlifting goals and was sick of being fat and strong so he created a simple program that involved benching, pulling, squatting and pressing.

I think it has gotten such a cult following due to it's simplicity, the consistent results it produces (strength increases) and the publicity it gets on EFS. It will be interesting to see what changes when he brings out 5/3/1 for Powerlifting (not sure when it will be but it's been in the works for a while).

 

[Spritcha]

Asking if they've trained elite lifters is like asking if your local primary school teacher has taught any PhDs.

That's not their job, they're there to get people started. Except in this analogy, strength training and primary school, it's like it's the 19th century when most people didn't finish grade 6. In a world of illiterates, successfully teaching basic literacy is pretty remarkable.

"What?! Rip never coached any elite lifters? Well obviously he is a crap coach, then!"
"What?! Mrs Jones never taught any PhDs? Well obviously she is a crap teacher, then!"

Spritcha, I think you are falling into that trap I mentioned, being so advanced that you forget just what is needed for beginners, and how important it is to have a good coach when you start. This is a world where if a 59kg guy gets to 65kg and squatting 75kg and deadlifting 110kg in 10 weeks, then qualified trainers will seriously suggest he must be on steroids.

When it comes to coaching, Rip doesn't present himself as anything more than he is. He has a lot of stupid ideas (eg he doesn't believe in global warming), but his ideas about training beginners are not among them. His advice is, for beginners, solid - and works.

I disagree. What I am saying is that if you want to get beyond primary school don't stick with primary school teacher.
Primary school teachers can be great at teaching primary school kids. But if you want a PhD or high school diploma go elsewhere. Isn't that what I was driving at?
Like I said- if training beginners is their thing great. No issue with that. In fact, Wendler's templates make perfect sense for someone how has very little time on their hands.
Just wanted to pose a honest question- because I was not sure and I have heard others say that their systems are ok with hobbyists and beginners- but if you want optimal strength development there are better ways.

 

[Spritcha]

I don't think Wendler has coached any elite lifters. He spent a fair amount of time under Louie @ Westside and then under Tate & Co @ EFS. 5/3/1 was never designed as a powerlifting program. It came about because Wendler had reached his powerlifting goals and was sick of being fat and strong so he created a simple program that involved benching, pulling, squatting and pressing.

I think it has gotten such a cult following due to it's simplicity, the consistent results it produces (strength increases) and the publicity it gets on EFS. It will be interesting to see what changes when he brings out 5/3/1 for Powerlifting (not sure when it will be but it's been in the works for a while).

Ah- that makes perfect sense. Thanks for the explanation!

 

[Oli]

Just wanted to pose a honest question- because I was not sure and I have heard others say that their systems are ok with hobbyists and beginners- but if you want optimal strength development there are better ways.

Curious what would you suggest?

 

[Spritcha]

Curious what would you suggest?

there is a debate there, thats for sure.
It depends on the level of experience and ability of the lifter- as well as time constraints etc.
But- that conversation is probably best had in another thread.

 

[Bench Polkov]

there is a debate there, thats for sure.
It depends on the level of experience and ability of the lifter- as well as time constraints etc.
But- that conversation is probably best had in another thread.

I too am interested in this discussion...

 

[Kyle Aaron]

I disagree. What I am saying is that if you want to get beyond primary school don't stick with primary school teacher.

Seems fair to me.

As I said, I imagine that if a person were squatting a couple of hundred kilos and wanted to go further, Rip would probably send him to Dave Tate or someone like that.

Primary school teachers can be great at teaching primary school kids. But if you want a PhD or high school diploma go elsewhere.

Yes. But only when you've finished primary school first. Most don't.

Basics first.

I have heard others say that their systems are ok with hobbyists and beginners- but if you want optimal strength development there are better ways.

I would be interested to hear of these other ways, provided they have actually produced results for a significant number of people from beginners onwards. I'm not really interested in how advanced people become elite, it's just not part of my day-to-day work.

 

[Sherro]

I would be interested to hear of these other ways, provided they have actually produced results for a significant number of people from beginners onwards. I'm not really interested in how advanced people become elite, it's just not part of my day-to-day work.

Read the Westside Book of Methods. Louie Simmons is by no means an expert author but he is a strong bastard that has spent alot of time creating some of the strongest powerlifters on the planet.