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Bill Starr wisdom on healthy shoulders

The guy works with a lot of elite athletes apparently and is huge in the crossfit world.

But hey, if you want to keep icing resting and popping neurofen go ahead.

Because you know anything I have done. Lol.

Huge in crossfit. Lol.
 
Anyway fuck this shit off about the Kelly Starret wanker. This thread is about Bill Starr stuff.
 
May work for some but I have been told I need to roll out trigger points for various injuries and have done so plenty of times. So far have never had any success with it at all.

What sort of injuries? How diligent have you been with it? (They say 5 times a day is an A pass)
 
What sort of injuries? How diligent have you been with it? (They say 5 times a day is an A pass)

I really don't want to clog up a good thread with this shit so can a mod delete these posts when they see them.

What injuries? Heaps on different ones

How diligent? I did it plenty, I still have a book on trigger points. Did it long enough until I realised it was a waste of time and stopped.
 
Some questions and answers for coach Starr.


Quote:

Wicked Willie said:
The Power Clean is what I would call a technique intensive movment, if done properly. The slow pull from the floor with straight arms, the explosive second pull, with elbows up and up, rising on the toes with a full shoulder shrug. This is a good movement for a well-conditioned athlete...but there exists quite a potential for damage from the uncoached movement, i.e. like Cajin turning his wrists over either too slowly or with lack of sufficient height...either one will strain the wrist tendons.

Dr. Ken (another man with a similar background, especially training for football) doesn't recommend the power clean, for the reason I mention and also that it places unusual demands on the connective tissues.

Numerous authorities now feel that you can't train "explosiveness," at least not with conventional weight training exercises.

How do you answer this?



There is always the potential for injury whenever any exercise is done incorrectly and this goes for the power clean as well. However, it is a simple movement to teach. Keep in mind that a beginner will be handling very light weights while learning proper form, so the risk is no greater than it is on squats, benches, inclines, or any other primary exercise. As for the power clean placing too much stress on the connective tissues, I don't think that's a problem.

And the concern about wrist injuries is also ungrounded. Should an athlete have weak wrists, tape them and include specific movements to strengthen them. We're talking about preparing athletes for a variety of contact sports where they often explode into one another at full speed. If they can't handle power cleans, they aren't ready to participate in contact sports.

I believe that YOU can enhance explosiveness in the weight room. I've seen it done on countless occasions. Power snatches, full snatches, full cleans, and jerks all force the muscles, attachments, and most importantly, the nervous system to react more quickly. And that attribute can be utilized in any physical activity. Even the strength he gains from more static lifts, like the squat and deadlift, helps him jump higher and move faster.
Bill Starr
 
Quote:

DanMartin said:
Coach Starr, in conjunction with the TSSS, if you were to suggest a direct lat exercise, what would be your choice?



I have two favorites: snatch-grip high pulls and wide-grip chins.
Bill Starr
 
Quote:

ccrow said:
For a long time, at least twenty years, seems like shoulder injuries and lifting weights go pretty much hand in hand. The bench press usually gets the blame yet some authorities insist overhead lifting is harder on the shoulders than bench pressing. The lab coat types will doubtless argue this to a draw.

I just wonder if these injuries were more common, less common, or about the same back when people did less bench pressing and more standing pressing, as well as more of the snatch and clean and jerk. Any other insights into keeping healthy shoulders welcome.




The bench press per se is not a risky exercise. When done right, it can help improve upper body strength and size. It's only when form takes a back seat to numbers and when it's grossly overtrained that problems result. Injuries occur in the shoulders and elbows when the bench press is overtrained, poor technique is used, such as rebounding the bar off the chest and bridging, no other exercises for the upper body are included in the program, and there are no core exercises done for the upper back. Quite often, it's a combination all these factors.


Quote:


I'm more curious about what went on back in the day when lifters did both. Did overhead work have a protective effect on the shoulders? I work out with a group of masters olympic lifters. The oldest has been competing for about fifty years, not kidding, seriously, since the 1950s. Most of these guys have zero shoulder problems and have never heard of their rotator cuff. By and large they are much more pain free than powerlifters of similar caliber twenty years younger.




When the overhead press was the primary upper body exercise, there were no such things as rotator cuff injuries, because that lift worked the small muscles that make up the rotator cuff and made them stronger. The bench press does not hit those groups. A great many athletes who give priority to flat benches do not bother to do anything for their upper backs. This results in a disproportionate strength in the shoulders and sooner or later will spell trouble. This problem can be rectified with some heavy work on the upper back: high pulls, shrugs, and bent-over rows.

Also, building variety into the upper body routine helps to prevent injuries. Once an athlete has graduated into the intermediate stage, I have him do: flat benches, inclines, overhead presses, and dips. He starts out with freehand dips, then when he is able to do 20, I have him do weighted dips. Working all the different angles of the upper body assure a more balanced development and all of the exercises help the others improve. I also make sure that the upper back receives plenty of attention. Of course, as always, using correct form is critical to safety. If an athlete learns to pause the bar on his chest on the flat bench from the very beginning, he will greatly reduce the risk of injury and be able to handle more weight in the long run.

I have written many times that I prefer the incline over the flat bench for young athletes. It is a pure shoulder exercise which is more suitable to sports such as baseball, basketball, and lacrosse. It is difficult to cheat on the incline, and this is a good thing. The reason the flat bench is part of The Big Three rather than the incline is because when Tommy Suggs and I devised this program, there simply weren't any inclines available in high school. There weren't even many in commercial gyms back then.
 
Sorry, I thought these threads were open for discussion and conversation, my mistake...

Might want to get that chip checked out before you go any further there bazza.
 
Sorry, I thought these threads were open for discussion and conversation, my mistake...

Might want to get that chip checked out before you go any further there bazza.

They are mate. Just nice to keep a good thread like this on topic.

Start a new one on trigger points.
 
Can any of the iron brothers hook me up with Coach Starr intermediate programme the original version that is straight weight across all sets not the ramping version by Madcow that is all over the internet.
 
Love this topic.

I grew up on a farm and always ate real well (fresh fruit and veggies and meat every single day) so i grew up big and tall. Big as in burly i guess, i have always been working the farm pretty good, moving things, wrestling the animals, chopping wood etc. I think it's set a deep memory into my muscles?

Years after i left the farm to work in an office, worked in offices for a long time and dropped off the physical work when i moved. Less and less i had to use my body so i got in worse shape. about 20 months ago i pull a few muscles in the glutes, lower back and hammy. Took months to finally repair, and by then i was in the worst shape i have ever been.

Fast forward to about 8 weeks ago and i decide to start my gym work again. After some weeks i get onto a beginners power lifting program that exercises just about every muscle group there is.

best ones i love are the military presses and bent over rows. Exercises the shoulders and back good. Sure seems to work well with the bench pressing.

Only now am i getting back that memory my muscles had, it feels great to get stronger. i think my years on the farm working really did good work for my back, i have never had a sore or injured shoulder before.

All in all, lots of movement and exercise goes a long way for the shoulders.
 
Love this topic.

I grew up on a farm and always ate real well (fresh fruit and veggies and meat every single day) so i grew up big and tall. Big as in burly i guess, i have always been working the farm pretty good, moving things, wrestling the animals, chopping wood etc. I think it's set a deep memory into my muscles?

Years after i left the farm to work in an office, worked in offices for a long time and dropped off the physical work when i moved. Less and less i had to use my body so i got in worse shape. about 20 months ago i pull a few muscles in the glutes, lower back and hammy. Took months to finally repair, and by then i was in the worst shape i have ever been.

Fast forward to about 8 weeks ago and i decide to start my gym work again. After some weeks i get onto a beginners power lifting program that exercises just about every muscle group there is.

best ones i love are the military presses and bent over rows. Exercises the shoulders and back good. Sure seems to work well with the bench pressing.

Only now am i getting back that memory my muscles had, it feels great to get stronger. i think my years on the farm working really did good work for my back, i have never had a sore or injured shoulder before.

All in all, lots of movement and exercise goes a long way for the shoulders.

I used to box with guys who looked like they were in shit shape but were immensely strong from manual labour.

We used to call them 'work fit'. You'd get fucking pummelled by some beer gutted middle aged **** and just turn to the other guys and just say eh work fit whatya gonna do.

Lot to be said for manual labour.
 
I used to box with guys who looked like they were in shit shape but were immensely strong from manual labour.

We used to call them 'work fit'. You'd get fucking pummelled by some beer gutted middle aged **** and just turn to the other guys and just say eh work fit whatya gonna do.

Lot to be said for manual labour.

Dense muscle, low metabolism lol
 
Sample Beginning Routine A

Monday (heavy day)

Squats (to limit) - 5 x 5
Deadlifts (to limit) - 5 x 5
Bench Presses (to limit) -5 x 5
Incline dumbbell presses - 2 x 20
Calf raises - 3 x 30

Wednesday (light day)

Squats (50 pounds less than Monday) - 5 x 5
Good Mornings - 4 x 8
Incline Presses - 5 x 5
Straight arm pullovers - 2 x 20
Curls - 2 x 20


Friday (medium day)
Bench presses - 4 x 8, 2 x 2
Squats (20 pounds less than Monday) - 5 x 5
surgs - 5 x 5
Overhead presses - 5 x 5
Chins - 4 x failure

Sample Beginning Routine B

Monday (heavy day)

Squats (to limit) - 5 x 5
Bent-over rows (to limit) - 5 x 5
Bench presses (to limit) - 5 x 5
Incline dumbbell presses - 2 x 20
Calf raises - 3 x 30


Wednesday (light day)

Squats (50 pounds less than Monday) - 5 x 5
Stiff-legged deadlifts - 4 x 8
Overhead presses - 3 x 5, 2 x 3
Dips - 4 x failure
When you can do 20 reps, start adding weight and
drop the reps back to eight.
Curls - 2 x 15


Friday (medium day)

Squats - 3 x 5, 2 x 3 (10 pounds more than Monday on last set)
Clean-grip high pulls - 5 x 5
Incline presses - 5 x 5, backoff set - 1 x 8
Close-grip bench presses - 3 x 12
Chins - 4 x failure
 
The very first step in setting up a strength program is deciding exactly what you are trying to accomplish with your training. Are you most interested in establishing a solid strength base for a sport like football or basketball, becoming a better bodybuilder, powerlifter or weightlifter, or getting stronger to enhance your general fitness? It's a key consideration because there are many, many approaches to a strength routine.

Competitive Olympic lifters, for example, must include lots of quick lifts and build their pure strength work around the snatch and clean and jerk. Powerlifters, too, must organize their programs around the three tested lifts. Other athletes have to build agility, run drills and provide sufficient time to practice their chosen sports, while people seeking greater strength so they look and feel better don't have to do any of the previously mentioned exercises.

One of the great things about weight training is the wide selection of exercises to choose from. On the flip side, however, the great number of of productive exercises means you must spend time sorting through them and choosing only a few, for it's not possible to do them all. This process is very confusing to many people. The following guidelines may prove helpful.

Alternate Exercises to Prevent Staleness

This is perhaps the easiest idea to get a handle on. Say, for example, that you need more work on your middle back and want to maintain proportionate strength in that area. You know that bent-over rows, deadlifts and snatch-grip high pulls all hit your middle-back muscles directly. Obviously, you can't do all three movements in the same week, but you can alternate them on successive weeks and ind up with a more complete middle-back program.

Work larger muscle groups before smaller ones.

This is one of the most important rules you can follow. I see lifters do a full segment of triceps and biceps exercises, then move to the flat bench and attempt an extensive bench pressing routine. They get very little benefit from their chest work simply because they've already exhausted their smaller muscle groups, which happen to play a major role in the heavier exercise. If they switched the order of exercises and did their arm work after their presses, they'd get a much better workout.

The same concept holds true for the back and legs. I catch my athletes performing calf raises before they do squats or power cleans so they can get them out of the way. That approach always has negative consequences, for the calves are vital to the success of the two heavier movements.

Do heavier movements before auxiliary exercises.

Every year I write the various programs for different bodyparts on the blackboard, listing them in the order in which they should be done, but occasionally athletes alter the sequence because a station they need is busy. My two auxiliary exercises for the back are chins and lat pulls. When the weight room is exceptionally crowded, athletes often do those movements before going to the heavier back exercise for the day. It never works, for their backs become fatigued and can't respond as they would if the trainees had performed the exercises in the correct order.

Not only should you work the primary, or core, exercise for a specific bodypart before the auxiliary one for that area, but you should also complete all the core exercises in a workout before you do any of the auxiliary movements.

"Does it really matter if I do some triceps work before my heavy pulling exercises?" I hear you ask. "After all, I really don't use my triceps when I do deadlifts or surgs, do I?"
In fact, you do. Try performing either lift with an injured triceps and you'll discover that very quickly.

There's also the factor of energy expenditure. The exercises you do at the beginning of a session are always going to get more energy that the ones you do later on. The large muscle groups require a great deal of energy, but you can still work the smaller ones effectively when you're running out of gas. You can coax your biceps into doing another rep or two, but few can convince themselves to grind out another rep in the deadlift when they're weary.

Do high-skill exercises before pure strength movements.

This is perhaps the most abused of all principles involved in setting up a strength program. There are a number of caoches who send me their programs to critique. In nearly every case the exercises are fine but the order is confused. Some have their athletic teams do several pure strength exercises such as squats, deadlifts and bench presses and finish with jerks from the rack. These are all useful exercises, but if they changed the order and had the athletes do jerks first, for they're a high-skill movement then the total session would be much more productive.

High-skill movements are those that require a great deal of coordination, timing, speed and athleticism. Pure strength exercises can be done in a more controlled fashion and in most cases that's exactly how they should be done. There are several degrees of high-skill exercises, beginning with the two Olympic lifts, the snatch and the clean and jerk. You should always place them first in any program that includes them. Next come power snatches, power cleans, drop snatches, hang cleans and hang snatches and, finally, snatch and clean high pulls and front squats. All the rest are pure strength movements, including deadlifts, bent-over rows, surgs, bench presses, inclines, overhead presses, dips, squats, lunges and leg presses. There are others, of course, but you get the idea. If it's an explosive movement, it's a high-skill exercise.

The reason you must give priority to the high-skill exercises is that they need so much more attention from your nervous system. Consequently, your body has to be at its physical peak when you do them. If you're tired and try to do heavy power snatches, high pulls or jerks, you're not only going to be ineffective, but you're also going to use faulty form and create bad habits.

There's an exception to this rule. If you're extremely weak in your legs and they're holding back your progress in all your other lifts, give them priority - at least until you bring them up to par. Even though you plan on doing some snatches or cleans at that workout, it's still better for you to your squats first. The high-skill lifts will suffer, but this is necessary if you're going to bring your leg strength into proportion with the rest of your body. Then you can change the order and do the high-skill lifts before the squats.

Do the more difficult exercises earlier in the week, when your energy level is higher.

This is where the heavy, light and medium principle comes in. Attempt to cheat on this principle for very long, and your progress will come to a grinding halt. That's a good reason to place the high-skill exercises before the pure strength ones in our weekly training schedule.

One winter I trained at Dr. John Gourgott's World Gym in Marin, where as aspiring Olympic weightlifter often asked me to watch his form. I did, but I offered no advice, since he had his own program that was given to him by another caoch. He always jerked form the rack at the end of the week, and my comments were always the same. "You're moving like molasses," I said. "You have to move your feet much faster." He never did. He tried but never succeeded. I thought he was just a poor athlete until the say when, out of curiosity, I asked to see his program.

I spotted the flaw immediately. He was doing a tremendous amount of leg and shoulder work on Thursday, then coming back the next day and trying to do a high-skill exercise. I suggested that he move the jerks to Monday and see if that might work better. The results were amazing, especially to him, for he also believed he was slow and had no real chance of ever jerking heavy weights. Within two weeks he improved his P.R. by some 40 pounds, and he was moving extremely fast. Rested muscles can move fast, but fatigued ones cannot get the job done on the high-skill movements.

Don't adopt another person's program without giving it some thought.

Problems often arise when one person uses an other's program without taking the time to analyze whether or not both parties have the same needs. Sometimes people select a series of excellent exercises from a magazine or book article, do all the recommended exercises religiously but make very little progress. The trouble with copying another person's program is that everyone has slightly different weak and strong points. That's the reason it;s so important to understand the basic principles of organizing a program and then be able to adapt them to our unique situation. This is a basic truism of weight training that's all too often overlooked, but it is absolutely critical to success.

Give priority to your weaker areas.

In my next article I will talk about proportionate development, weak points, priority training and the need to incorporate these factors into your overall program. It's important to determine honestly just what areas need the most attention. Put your ego on the back burner and be very truthful. All too frequently people build a program around their stronger areas and neglect the groups that really need the hardest work.

I do understand how difficult it is to perform exercises in which you're weak in front of training mates., for I'm faced with the same problem. My training mates always thoroughly enjoy the fact that I'm weak in any lift, as it gives them some degree of revenge for all the abuses I pile o them. I also know from experience that if I work an exercise long and hard enough, I may eventually be able to do more than some of the guys who give me static.

The very best way to improve a weak area is to give it priority. That simply means you do the core exercises for that bodypart first in your routine when you have the most energy. It also means you can do more total work on the exercise. You can give priority to your shoulder girdle, or upper body, or legs on every training day, but the back is a different story.

I believe the lower back is best worked on the light day, which is typically Wednesday, with either stiff-legged deadlifts or good mornings. If you perform either of those exercises first, before squats, the squats will suffer. What's more, the two exercises work much better when you do them directly after squats. So if you decide to focus on your back for a time, only give it priority on your heavy and medium days. That will still be sufficient to get the job done.

Sometimes people really don't have a weaker area. In that case they may decide to concentrate on improving one bodypart for a few months and give it priority until they reach their goal. If you're not certain about what to put first in your routine, always select squats. Strength training is synonymous with squatting. If you improve your squat, you become stronger - period. The squat fills the requirements for the first exercise in other ways as well, as it is, without question, the very best movement for warming the body and getting all the necessary juices flowing. It's also the best exercise to do first, psychologically. Once you train yourself to start with squats, you'll get stronger and maintain that strength for a long time.

Always do one core exercise for each major muscle group - shoulder girdle, back, and legs, which includes hips.

Any program that neglects any of those areas is going to be deficient for it will result in disproportionate development.

Exercise selection depends on a number of factors, such as your present condition. If you're starting back after an extended layoff or have decided to try a strength routine for the first time, you should select different exercises from what someone who's been seriously training for a long time would chose. Beginners are better off sticking with basics, which means full-range exercises, the big three - squat, power clean, press. More advanced lifters need to incorporate more specialized exercises into their routines and they also need to do lifts that allow them to overload their major muscles.

Exercise selection is often dependent on a person's physical limitations. These might be the result of a recent injury or an old, recurring one. If you're in the process of rehabilitating an injury, you'd be foolish to try and follow the same routine you used when you were completely healthy. You must give your undivided attention to rebuilding the hurt area of your body and bringing it up to par. If an area of your body hurts whenever you try to do certain exercises, you have to adapt our routine of suffer dire consequences.

I'll use the rotator cuff as an example, for that seems to be a prevalent area for injury. Let's say you find that any form of flat benching gives you a great deal of pain while you're doing the exercises, as well as later on that night. Naturally, you must eliminate them, at least for a time. In some instanced you can reinstate the exercise that hurts an injured area if you do it with light weights and a sensible amount of work. Dips also aggravate your rotator cuff but not nearly as much as the flat benches. You can do overhead presses and inclines without any pain at all, so you must design your shoulder girdle routine around those two exercises. If you work them diligently, you will be able to maintain a strong upper body.

The trick, if it can be called that, is to experiment and find one or two exercises that work the major muscle groups without irritating the injured area. Granted, that's not always so easy to accomplish, but I have a number of older friends who have devised unique movements that get the job done nicely. Many tend to avoid all exercises that involve the injured bodypart, fearful that they might be doing more harm than good by trying to work the muscles - or even the adjoining muscles. So a person who has lower-back problems stops doing back exercises, and the individual who has sore knees forsakes all leg movements. That's a mistake. When you allow entire groups of muscles to become weak through inactivity, you're eventually going to experience a whole new set of problems. I've observed that serious trainees can always find something to do if they think through their particular problem and apply what they know about training.

Tailor your program to your current needs.

A routine that served you well during the winter may not work at all in the summer. When it was cold, you had plenty of free time and could easily get to the gym four times a week, but the summer is a different story. There are vacations, friends coming for their vacations, grass to mow, kids to caoch at Little League, and you're lucky if you can get in two workouts a week. If you try to stick with your four-day-a-week routine, you're going to get frustrated because you simply cannot cram all those exercises into two workouts. Instead, alter your program. Drop all the auxiliary work for a time and concentrate on a few primary exercises. Then, when you have more time to train again, you'll have maintained a solid strength base and be way ahead of the game.
 
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