Ausbb roundtable - Texas Method and Bill Starr's Madcow 5x5

[White_Lie]

Completely understand where you're coming from. I think they've been grouped as beginner routines due to the fact that they're renowned for putting on mass and strength in large doses compared to the typical bb/isolation type training but really they should be more of an intermediate routine and something more like PTC's beginner program of 3x8 should be adopted by most pretty much until you plateau and your form is nailed.

As a beginner though, you could probably train just about any style, as long as your diet is on track and you get plenty of rest then you'll make gains. How you compare someone on a 5x5 to a bb style is hard as everyone will get something different out of both types.

 

[Bazza20]

Slightly off-topic and this is just opening up a discussion but why have we always been in the train of thought that these sort of plans are suited to beginners when really the squat and deadlift (and bench to a degree) are prob some of the most advanced/high risk exercises? and 5 x 5 at that which is hugely taxing/ harder to stick with correct form....I understand that people could seek advice on form but alot of newbies dont/cant - wouldnt a 5 day - 6 day bodybuilding style split be more a beginner program than this?

Dont go blastin just opening up a convo....

My thoughts.

The lifts arnt that hard to learn. Why not learn them from the start. Doing a heap of other bodybuilding crap first isn't going to make learning the squat easier.

Bodybuilding style split. beginners are so weak that once that initial doms had gone they could do a session in the morning and be right to do it again in that afternoon. Waiting a week between workouts as in a bb split is just wasted time for someone starting out.

I don't mind 5 reps for beginners. You are not doing balls out 5 rep nose bleed sets for a beginner. It's easier to keep form for 5 reps rather than 10.

 

[Rugby88]

Completely understand where you're coming from. I think they've been grouped as beginner routines due to the fact that they're renowned for putting on mass and strength in large doses compared to the typical bb/isolation type training but really they should be more of an intermediate routine and something more like PTC's beginner program of 3x8 should be adopted by most pretty much until you plateau and your form is nailed.

As a beginner though, you could probably train just about any style, as long as your diet is on track and you get plenty of rest then you'll make gains. How you compare someone on a 5x5 to a bb style is hard as everyone will get something different out of both types.

My thoughts.

The lifts arnt that hard to learn. Why not learn them from the start. Doing a heap of other bodybuilding crap first isn't going to make learning the squat easier.

Bodybuilding style split. beginners are so weak that once that initial doms had gone they could do a session in the morning and be right to do it again in that afternoon. Waiting a week between workouts as in a bb split is just wasted time for someone starting out.

I don't mind 5 reps for beginners. You are not doing balls out 5 rep nose bleed sets for a beginner. It's easier to keep form for 5 reps rather than 10.

Totally agree with both posts - for me I do think someone starting out should learn the core exercises straight off the bat - when I started out I was mainly doing rugby/sports style weight programs/bodybuilding programs - due to being told to do the sports style shit and then doing the bbing style shit on top of that....then quickly moving into 5x5 style splits - purely from personal study....

Just thought I would open up the discussion - for a beginner though I think it comes down to volume - the more time you can pump out the volume to start with the better - regardless of program....

 

[Shrek]

[MENTION=16675]bozodos[/MENTION]; you're flogging a dead horse if you think you can convert [MENTION=8399]0ni[/MENTION]; but points for effort. 120 bench is solid BTW

 

[D1cko]

5x5 is still part of my routine. Probably always will be in some way.

 

[Timeah]

5x5 is still part of my routine. Probably always will be in some way.

Also.

Tim.

 

[bozodos]

@bozodos ; you're flogging a dead horse if you think you can convert @0ni ; but points for effort. 120 bench is solid BTW

I just like to argue Shrek, and it was fun seeing 0ni being the one who was getting mad for a change. I know people like 0ni in real life, and the chances of changing their thinking

Maybe I have a warped idea of what's 'strong'.

Took me 9 months to go from 40kg to 120kg bench doing PTC Beginner (which was incidentally how I found AusBB), the version posted here is much better than the original version in the newsletter IMO. That was eating at a cut due to being a fatass though as well.

I asked Markos about 5x5 initially, because that's most often recommended around the internet for beginners (didn't know about Starting Strength at the time), he replied that beginners (in terms of weight lifted) don't have the power to get the most out of it. That said, I did use 5x5 to break my squat plateau on the program.

 

[Shrek]

I just like to argue Shrek, and it was fun seeing 0ni being the one who was getting mad for a change. I know people like 0ni in real life, and the chances of changing their thinking

Maybe I have a warped idea of what's 'strong'.

Took me 9 months to go from 40kg to 120kg bench doing PTC Beginner (which was incidentally how I found AusBB), the version posted here is much better than the original version in the newsletter IMO. That was eating at a cut due to being a fatass though as well.

I asked Markos about 5x5 initially, because that's most often recommended around the internet for beginners (didn't know about Starting Strength at the time), he replied that beginners (in terms of weight lifted) don't have the power to get the most out of it. That said, I did use 5x5 to break my squat plateau on the program.

Well done, some people never get a 120 bench even after years of training. Took me a shit load longer than 9 months.

 

[Darkoz]

What's your physical stats @bozodos ;?

 

[White_Lie]

A few guys I work with have only just recently started training again. Both ex footy players but built pretty large, around 85-90kg and not tall boys, although they do carry some excess weight. Have gone from benching around the 110 mark to hitting 140 this week in around 5-6 months. No signs of plateau yet.
I don't know if I just work with strong kunce or what but most of the blokes up here will bench over 100 for reps, not many test 1RM's often though. Its still a sign of being an intermediate lifter but it doesn't seem 'strong' to me

 

[D1cko]

There's more to an intermediate lifter than a good bench...how are they progressing on Squats/deads?

 

[White_Lie]

Deads they're both around 180-200 last I saw. Squats seem lagging but they never test their 1RM. Will do 140ish for sets of 6-8

 

[0ni]

There's more to an intermediate lifter than a good bench...how are they progressing on Squats/deads?

nah man it's ALL about the bench press
Pete Rubish deadlifted 800lb when he was benching 150, should have stuck to the Texas Method lol
Same with Nghiep Lu, deadlifts 272.5, squats 180 and benched 100. Should have stuck with Starting Strength or the PTC beginner program lol

 

[lkt004]

I use 5*5 for assistance, but not for the main lifts, do what makes you strong, not what other people tell you to do.

 

[bozodos]

What's your physical stats @bozodos ;?

5'11, currently 120kg. I don't consider myself a great lifter, intermediate yes. Weightwise, I've dropped 30kg in the last year from a completely untrained, sedentary starting point.

There's a lot of people who bench as much or more than I do at the gym - I didn't even do it or OHP for a month due to shoulder issues and had to deload. I refer back to it, as for a long time it was WELL below my squat and deadlift; my upper body strength was terrible. It's hard to compare with other people though, as so many do BB style half reps that don't touch chest or pause, so that '150kg' is really not 150kg.

It is however, the one compound that almost everyone does, whether they're a BB'er, PL'er or regular lifter, therefore is the best means of comparison.

I would say that if one of your compounds is vastly disproportionate to the others, then yes it would indicate a training deficiency, unless you're a specialist in the one thing. In regards to Pete Rubish read this http://www.lift-run-bang.com/2013/11/solving-madmans-puzzle-how-i-helped.html basically his shoulder and arm strength was shithouse, therefore imbalanced.

These are known working programs for the majority of people - to try and claim otherwise suggests to me that you either weren't eating enough, resting enough, or putting in enough effort.

 

[0ni]

Oh you mean he did something other than the Texas Method?
Interesting

 

[0ni]

In fact that entire article just says what I have been saying all along lmao
"This is why a training philosophy far outweighs "routines". Routines are just that. Routines. Principles and ideologies BUILD the routine. Not the other way around"
"Pete kept some of the things he liked, and discarded some of the things he didn't"

 

[Darkoz]

.....
"Pete kept some of the things he liked, and discarded some of the things he didn't"

This is a good philosophy

 

[mike367]

I did the Mad Cow years ago, it damn near killed me, I'll do it again though and soon.

 

[bozodos]

In fact that entire article just says what I have been saying all along lmao
"This is why a training philosophy far outweighs "routines". Routines are just that. Routines. Principles and ideologies BUILD the routine. Not the other way around"
"Pete kept some of the things he liked, and discarded some of the things he didn't"

"You don't make huge wholesale changes when things go into the shitter. If you plan your training around solid principles and theories, then you shouldn't have to rearrange everything in order to move up again. You make small changes, to see how they affect your training, and go from there. "

So it's pretty much the 5/3/1 philosophy. Also note that in the start of the article it's mentioned that to be truly strong, all of your lifts need to be strong.