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The "Lets flog a dead horse and talk about bench ROM" thread

High Road said:
So it keeps getting brough up over and over and over and over and over and over again, but nothing changes...weird, cause that sort of sounds like a problem that needs addressing and changing
Click to expand...

Its been brought up a few times by the same person or national rep I believe, but has been outvoted each time by a majority. Sounds like agitation, not a groundswell.
 
High Road said:
So now it's been raised a couple of times by one bloke???
Click to expand...

I'm not 100% sure, I'm just going on what I've been told. The same bloke or the same nation or nations. Chris posted the link from 2009 which I don't think was the first time and I know it was voted on again in the last 2 years.
 
One of the main reasons the minimum stroke rule hasn't been adopted is that we're arguing over is in fact relatively rare and an outlier. It is a logical fallacy to take the most extreme examples of something and use that as the basis to advocate change, when the proposed change will impose a lot of challenges on refererees. On that basis, I could post videos of Lamar Gant and argue for specific rule changes to the deadlift. When you go to an actual powerlifting comp, the number of lifters with a stroke length of less than 15cm is actually quite rare - maybe 5% of lifters? The aesthetics of the sport aren't as impaired as isolated extreme you tube videos might suggest. Let's take an entire session for a lighter weight class from the IPF Classic World Cup - the 83 mens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEjZNtD8Prk How many of these lifts are offensive? I would say that all of these benches are far more strict than what you would see in any average gym. Assuming you brought in a rule requiring judges to measure stroke length, how many lifters would have failed? The answer is zero - most of these guys have a stroke length in excess of 30cm. Is the problem really big enough to justify an onerous rule change?

The fact is that it is more of a perceived problem than an actual problem, and this is the precise reason why the proposed change did not get up in 2002, as per the minutes: http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/fileadmin/data/Congress/Minutes_IPF_Congress_2002.pdf In fact the proposal was never even voted on in 2002 - the Technical Committee withdrew the proposal at the meeting when it was clear no one was going to vote in favour. I cannot find any reference in the minutes to there being a vote on the Technical Committe proposal in 2008/2009. In both instances, they were discussing 15cm, lending to the suggestion it was one man's crusade.

It is even less of a problem in raw than equipped (there was only equipped when the 2002 vote happened), because the shirt makes up for the weakness you create when you adopt a wide grip elbows-tucked style bench.

Assuming there is a problem, I do have a proposed alternative solution, however. For heavier lifters (eg perhaps 93s/105s and over for mean, 84 and over for women), the rule could stay as it is. For lighter lifters (eg 83s and under perhaps), the rules could specify that the entire hands must be inside the score mark. This would be easy to enforce as refs already have to look for finger position - in fact it is easier to judge if the fingers have to all be within the score. This would automatically reduce the stroke length considerably for very short lifters.

Anyway, the discussion is disappointing because as offensive as people have found Eddie Berglund's bench press, his squat is beautiful.
 
strong enough? said:
One of the main reasons the minimum stroke rule hasn't been adopted is that we're arguing over is in fact relatively rare and an outlier. It is a logical fallacy to take the most extreme examples of something and use that as the basis to advocate change, when the proposed change will impose a lot of challenges on refererees. On that basis, I could post videos of Lamar Gant and argue for specific rule changes to the deadlift. When you go to an actual powerlifting comp, the number of lifters with a stroke length of less than 15cm is actually quite rare - maybe 5% of lifters? The aesthetics of the sport aren't as impaired as isolated extreme you tube videos might suggest. Let's take an entire session for a lighter weight class from the IPF Classic World Cup - the 83 mens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEjZNtD8Prk How many of these lifts are offensive? I would say that all of these benches are far more strict than what you would see in any average gym. Assuming you brought in a rule requiring judges to measure stroke length, how many lifters would have failed? The answer is zero - most of these guys have a stroke length in excess of 30cm. Is the problem really big enough to justify an onerous rule change?

The fact is that it is more of a perceived problem than an actual problem, and this is the precise reason why the proposed change did not get up in 2002, as per the minutes: http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/fileadmin/data/Congress/Minutes_IPF_Congress_2002.pdf In fact the proposal was never even voted on in 2002 - the Technical Committee withdrew the proposal at the meeting when it was clear no one was going to vote in favour. I cannot find any reference in the minutes to there being a vote on the Technical Committe proposal in 2008/2009. In both instances, they were discussing 15cm, lending to the suggestion it was one man's crusade.

It is even less of a problem in raw than equipped (there was only equipped when the 2002 vote happened), because the shirt makes up for the weakness you create when you adopt a wide grip elbows-tucked style bench.

Assuming there is a problem, I do have a proposed alternative solution, however. For heavier lifters (eg perhaps 93s/105s and over for mean, 84 and over for women), the rule could stay as it is. For lighter lifters (eg 83s and under perhaps), the rules could specify that the entire hands must be inside the score mark. This would be easy to enforce as refs already have to look for finger position - in fact it is easier to judge if the fingers have to all be within the score. This would automatically reduce the stroke length considerably for very short lifters.

Anyway, the discussion is disappointing because as offensive as people have found Eddie Berglund's bench press, his squat is beautiful.
Click to expand...

/thread
 
strong enough? said:
One of the main reasons the minimum stroke rule hasn't been adopted is that we're arguing over is in fact relatively rare and an outlier. It is a logical fallacy to take the most extreme examples of something and use that as the basis to advocate change, when the proposed change will impose a lot of challenges on refererees. On that basis, I could post videos of Lamar Gant and argue for specific rule changes to the deadlift. When you go to an actual powerlifting comp, the number of lifters with a stroke length of less than 15cm is actually quite rare - maybe 5% of lifters? The aesthetics of the sport aren't as impaired as isolated extreme you tube videos might suggest. Let's take an entire session for a lighter weight class from the IPF Classic World Cup - the 83 mens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEjZNtD8Prk How many of these lifts are offensive? I would say that all of these benches are far more strict than what you would see in any average gym. Assuming you brought in a rule requiring judges to measure stroke length, how many lifters would have failed? The answer is zero - most of these guys have a stroke length in excess of 30cm. Is the problem really big enough to justify an onerous rule change?

The fact is that it is more of a perceived problem than an actual problem, and this is the precise reason why the proposed change did not get up in 2002, as per the minutes: http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/fileadmin/data/Congress/Minutes_IPF_Congress_2002.pdf In fact the proposal was never even voted on in 2002 - the Technical Committee withdrew the proposal at the meeting when it was clear no one was going to vote in favour. I cannot find any reference in the minutes to there being a vote on the Technical Committe proposal in 2008/2009. In both instances, they were discussing 15cm, lending to the suggestion it was one man's crusade.

It is even less of a problem in raw than equipped (there was only equipped when the 2002 vote happened), because the shirt makes up for the weakness you create when you adopt a wide grip elbows-tucked style bench.

Assuming there is a problem, I do have a proposed alternative solution, however. For heavier lifters (eg perhaps 93s/105s and over for mean, 84 and over for women), the rule could stay as it is. For lighter lifters (eg 83s and under perhaps), the rules could specify that the entire hands must be inside the score mark. This would be easy to enforce as refs already have to look for finger position - in fact it is easier to judge if the fingers have to all be within the score. This would automatically reduce the stroke length considerably for very short lifters.

Anyway, the discussion is disappointing because as offensive as people have found Eddie Berglund's bench press, his squat is beautiful.
Click to expand...

Quality post, well said
 
Not a bad idea. It would be easy to assess from a judging point of view.

'Assuming there is a problem, I do have a proposed alternative solution, however. For heavier lifters (eg perhaps 93s/105s and over for mean, 84 and over for women), the rule could stay as it is. For lighter lifters (eg 83s and under perhaps), the rules could specify that the entire hands must be inside the score mark. This would be easy to enforce as refs already have to look for finger position - in fact it is easier to judge if the fingers have to all be within the score. This would automatically reduce the stroke length considerably for very short lifters'.
 
El Freako said:
And BAM, finger amputations galore!

Its a safety rule, not a stick it to the tall guys rule. Trying to argue against it because it inadvertently favours a shorter armed lifter IS FUCKING RETARDED.

And you do realise that super wide benchers (like myself) do put themselves at a disadvantage by going so wide. It inhibits our lockout power greatly. If we don't get the speed off the chest we're doomed. Closer grip benchers can grind out lifts with tricep power.
Click to expand...

Pfftt what's safety got to do with it
 
It's the best thread. On a related note here's Louie simmons box squatting, it looks like a dwarf getting on and off a bar stool.


(after ed coan, @5:39 or so)
 
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