Post up what you are eating

[jzpowahz]

If it works for you then that is all that matters really. Science is one thing but self experimentation is very beneficial.

 

[showdownhero]

I did low carb keto style diets for years. It was a terrible time. I managed to get fat and lean on keto at different times. Bulking on keto wasn't much really a problem. Cutting was a different story.

Cutting on keto my lifting went to absolute shit. I lost a heap of muscle, was always lethargic. I got lean but didn't look muscular at all. I had comments from people I looked like a cancer patient, not the look I was going for. I found it worse for cravings. Not saying it won't work for some, you can sure loose weight but for the majority of people low carb keto is no good for performance in the gym and keeping muscle while cutting.

Just because you are in keto doesn't mean you can't put on fat. Also IIFYM also applies to keto just you macro ratios are changed.

I don't follow IIFYM because there's a lot of foods I don't touch even if they're LCHF. I follow some keto principles like grass fed beef and free range chicken but I still eat dairy, I just try and make sure they come from grass fed cattle (wherever possible).

I did keto last year as well and felt like garbage (so 100% understand where you're coming from), the big change for me has been including BP coffee as part of my ketogenic diet.

If it works for you then that is all that matters really. Science is one thing but self experimentation is very beneficial.

So much this

 

[chocchillimango]

I had this stoush with @MaxBrenner on his facebook page. I'm not disputing there's no metabolic advantage but that's not the only factor in weight loss.

The main reasons I stick with a keto/LCHF diet are

• There's scientific evidence that high fat/low carb meals blunt your insulin response meaning you feel less hungry less often and require less food to be satiated. I lost 9kgs in 3 months this year with ease on an intermittent fasting keto diet (took me 6 months to achieve the same thing leangains style)
• Cravings a drastically reduced
• Despite their being scientific evidence of no metabolic advantage I've found I've been able to eat ~300 more calories per day on keto than with leangains and achieving better results

Put it this way I followed a leangains IIFYM style diet for 6 months last year and found it a lot more difficult and draining than following LCHF, meaning I believe it's a diet that you can only sustain for a certain period of time. I believe I'll eat LCHF for the rest of my life because of how much better it makes me look and feel.

Just ask my GF I've gone from an angry calorie counting IIFYM gorilla to a zen-like keto buddha

At the end of the day, the science shows the norm. Some people are more sensitive to carbs and some to fats and some to neither (the norm being neither in this sense).
It's possible that you may be sensitive to carbs. But from what you describe, it seems that you have simply found a dietary protocol that leaves you satisfied and therefore better able to achieve your goals because you can stick to it happily.

In the end, that is one of the critical factors for success. It does not mean that other ways are better or worse, but just this seems to suit you better. If IIFYM suited you better psychologically, then you'd probably get good results with that too (nothing to do with physiology).

The point I suspect Kev may have made, correctly, is whether or not what you are doing is optimal from a body composition perspective. But that is irrelevant if other methods don't suit you because you'd not be able to take advantage of any edge they might provide.

Do what works for you and gets you to where you are happy.

 

[showdownhero]

absolutely spot on

 

[Repacked]

I'm no expert on keto and this isn't a critique but a question - regarding your assertion that you may eat LCHF for 'the rest of your life', would a long term diet consisting of disproportionately high fats possibly pose some health risks, especially is there is a higher than desirable percentage of saturated fats?
While it may be beneficial in a fat loss diet, if you were trying to build muscle do you think that it may impede your progress given the properties of carbohydrates (or lack thereof)? Just questions not a criticisms.

 

[showdownhero]

I'm no expert on keto and this isn't a critique but a question - regarding your assertion that you may eat LCHF for 'the rest of your life', would a long term diet consisting of disproportionately high fats possibly pose some health risks, especially is there is a higher than desirable percentage of saturated fats?
While it may be beneficial in a fat loss diet, if you were trying to build muscle do you think that it may impede your progress given the properties of carbohydrates (or lack thereof)? Just questions not a criticisms.

The newer more credible scientific data (ie studies not backed by big pharma or grain organisations) suggests homocysteine and visceral fat levels are the true indicators of poor cardiovascular health and not consumption of saturated fats or cholesterol levels as has been believed for the past 50 years. It seems increasingly likely that the inflammatory response from processed foods is what hurts us and blaming Cholesterol for all heart attacks is like blaming firemen for all fires, just because they are both at the scene of the crime doesn't imply they are responsible for the act.

ABC's Catalyst tacked this issue last year to scathing criticism and were subsequently pulled from the ABC's website due to concerns of bias. However upon reading the report the only element of both episodes (see below) they found to be unbalanced was in the second episode when they neglected to mention the benefit of statins to those who had already suffered a heart attack (called secondary prevention). Seems like a bit of an overreaction to pull both episodes right?

 

[chocchillimango]

The Quantum programs were good and should not have been pulled or apologised for. It was basically exploring what has now become established about the truth surrounding fat, cholesterol, and CVD. Unfortunately, government bodies have generally not caught up yet. Which is mostly a shame because it places GPs in a very difficult position in providing the right guidance to their patients

HOWEVER, to conclude from these programs that a long term high fat diet is necessarily a good thing is a bit of a stretch.
The base premise is that fat has been unfairly targeted as the bogey man for chronic disease (just as sugar has now been unfairly targeted).

There are some populations that have evolved to live on such diets (inb4 someone says "inuit" oops lol). But that takes generations and is a product of their geography, food supply, climate adaptation etc. Not a dietary choice per se.

The truth usually lies in the statement of "too much of anything is going to be a bad thing, regardless of how good that thing is".
Too much can be anything that ranges from a specific dose in a given instant to prolonged consumption in quantity over a period of time - and even that can be highly individualistic.

The exception, of course, is chocolate. Oh and ice cream. Especially chocolate ice cream

 

[Bazza20]

The newer more credible scientific data (ie studies not backed by big pharma or grain organisations) suggests homocysteine and visceral fat levels are the true indicators of poor cardiovascular health and not consumption of saturated fats or cholesterol levels as has been believed for the past 50 years. It seems increasingly likely that the inflammatory response from processed foods is what hurts us and blaming Cholesterol for all heart attacks is like blaming firemen for all fires, just because they are both at the scene of the crime doesn't imply they are responsible for the act.

ABC's Catalyst tacked this issue last year to scathing criticism and were subsequently pulled from the ABC's website due to concerns of bias. However upon reading the report the only element of both episodes (see below) they found to be unbalanced was in the second episode when they neglected to mention the benefit of statins to those who had already suffered a heart attack (called secondary prevention). Seems like a bit of an overreaction to pull both episodes right?

Your are claiming big pharma and grain company conspiracies. On the other side of the argument you can also claim those with money invested in the low carb keto movement could also be blurring the scientific research in their favor with funding money.

 

[Shrek]

Damn conspirators.

 

[Repacked]

There are some populations that have evolved to live on such diets (inb4 someone says "inuit" oops lol). But that takes generations and is a product of their geography, food supply, climate adaptation etc. Not a dietary choice per se.

The ability of Inuits to survive on a high fat diet without significant rates of heart disease may be questionable -
[Article] Critical evaluation of omega 3 benefits

The truth usually lies in the statement of "too much of anything is going to be a bad thing, regardless of how good that thing is".

This is true.

The exception, of course, is chocolate. Oh and ice cream. Especially chocolate ice cream

This is even truer (sic?)

 

[showdownhero]

Your are claiming big pharma and grain company conspiracies. On the other side of the argument you can also claim those with money invested in the low carb keto movement could also be blurring the scientific research in their favor with funding money.

The only people who would be benefiting from such a conspiracy are small time farmers and dairies feeding their cattle nothing but grass. Hardly the type to sponsor million dollar research projects.

 

[Bazza20]

The only people who would be benefiting from such a conspiracy are small time farmers and dairies feeding their cattle nothing but grass. Hardly the type to sponsor million dollar research projects.

You have the blinkers on mate. Plenty of ways to make money through low carb keto band wagon. You can't have it both ways. Both sides have an agenda and both try and make money off it and both put money into studies.

Don't get me started on grass only fed cows. Let me keep it simple. Grass while a good feed at times isn't the magical perfect feed for cows that the stuff your reading is telling you.

 

[showdownhero]

You have the blinkers on mate. Plenty of ways to make money through low carb keto band wagon. You can't have it both ways. Both sides have an agenda and both try and make money off it and both put money into studies.

Don't get me started on grass only fed cows. Let me keep it simple. Grass while a good feed at times isn't the magical perfect feed for cows that the stuff your reading is telling you.

I don't follow any particular individual's ethos and am therefore immune from being subjected to advertoirals for George Columbaris' low carb Swisse Vitamins or feel the need to purchase Pete Evans' latest cook book (both recent converts to LCHF). There's no denying the presence of self serving scam artists.

However surely you can see the advantages to purchasing food stuffs through small time producers with an actual affinity for the animals they are rearing rather than massive conglomerate companies that only care for their bottom line.

 

[Bazza20]

However surely you can see the advantages to purchasing food stuffs through small time producers with an actual affinity for the animals they are rearing rather than massive conglomerate companies that only care for their bottom line.

This just shows you are reading information off a dodgy website not coming from actual knowledge on topic.

The grass fed movement in full of crap.

Also the idea that small farms treat animals better or it's better to have food from small farms than large corporate farms has no realisation in the real world.

How many large and small farms have you been to.

For your reference this is where I am right now.

 

[showdownhero]

This just shows you are reading information off a dodgy website not coming from actual knowledge on topic.

The grass fed movement in full of crap.

Also the idea that small farms treat animals better or it's better to put have food from small farms than large corporate farms has no realisation in the real world.

How many large and small farms have you been to.

For your reference this is where I am right now.
View attachment 10534

So grass is bad for cows how exactly?

I spent a lot of time on my uncles farm which I suppose I would consider a large farm but probably not many more than that.

 

[Shrek]

Kebab time kunce.

 

[Bazza20]

So grass is bad for cows how exactly?

I spent a lot of time on my uncles farm which I suppose I would consider a large farm but probably not many more than that.

That's the problem it's not just back or white. Grass isn't either good or bad.

I could go on all day about the topic and no one wants that. Keeping it basic lets just say modern dairy cows cannot physically eat enough grass to meet their energy requirements. This can lead to rapid weight loss which causes ketosis( can easily be fatal if not treated), fatty liver( can be fatal). Grass doesn't contain enough minerals for milk producing cows that will also cause death. Again, this is the the tip of it.

I wish a couple of weekends at a relatives farm made people experts it would make my job a lot easier.

I do find it amusing you can tell the size of my farm from that pic. Somehow you know what wasn't even in the pic. Lol.

 

[chocchillimango]

For your reference this is where I am right now.
View attachment 10534

I know you're working but wow, that's a magnificent view. Not a bad office

 

[Bazza20]

I know you're working but wow, that's a magnificent view. Not a bad office

Haha. Yeah turned out not a bad pic.

 

[showdownhero]

That's the problem it's not just back or white. Grass isn't either good or bad.

I could go on all day about the topic and no one wants that. Keeping it basic lets just say modern dairy cows cannot physically eat enough grass to meet their energy requirements. This can lead to rapid weight loss which causes ketosis( can easily be fatal if not treated), fatty liver( can be fatal). Grass doesn't contain enough minerals for milk producing cows that will also cause death. Again, this is the the tip of it.

Look all I'm doing is buying butter from these guys
B.-d.Farm Paris Creek Pty Ltd - Our Story

and my cream from these guys
Gippsland Dairy - Made slower to taste better

I'm not sure why you're getting your jimmies all rustled up.

If the cattle can't get sufficient nutrients from the grass perhaps they're being over milked? When they're fed substantial amounts of unnatural feed they can require antibiotics and hormones to keep them "healthy". Not to mention the blood, puss, faeces and urine that exist in large scale dairies' milk, hence the need for pasteurisation.

But hey if you want to keep buying pura milk then who am I to stop you

I wish a couple of weekends at a relatives farm made people experts it would make my job a lot easier.

I do find it amusing you can tell the size of my farm from that pic. Somehow you know what wasn't even in the pic. Lol.

I wasn't casting any aspersions on the size of your farm, I was commenting on the size of my uncle's farm.